Chemists, food buffs and everyone else please...
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- Deputy Grecian
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Chemists, food buffs and everyone else please...
Why does dark food always have a much deeper flavour than its light counterpart?
Examples:
Sugar
Bread
Rice
Pasta
Beer
Wine
Rum (alcohol in general)
Chocolate
Onions
Please note, I don't mean stronger flavour (white onions are stronger than red), I mean fullness and depth and range of flavours (red onions are all of those things more than white ones).
Does anyone have an explanation for this? Has the area been explored? Is the dark pigment in said foods actually linked to depth of flavour? Is there some chemical found in all of them called Darkinol, Darkamine, Polyhydrodarkide?
Can anyone think of any examples where darker isn't deeper in flavour?
HELP!
Examples:
Sugar
Bread
Rice
Pasta
Beer
Wine
Rum (alcohol in general)
Chocolate
Onions
Please note, I don't mean stronger flavour (white onions are stronger than red), I mean fullness and depth and range of flavours (red onions are all of those things more than white ones).
Does anyone have an explanation for this? Has the area been explored? Is the dark pigment in said foods actually linked to depth of flavour? Is there some chemical found in all of them called Darkinol, Darkamine, Polyhydrodarkide?
Can anyone think of any examples where darker isn't deeper in flavour?
HELP!
- englishangel
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With most of the things you mention the white variety has been refined, so the darker one is more 'natural' so you are getting the 'natural' taste.
However I think darker varieties of apple have more taste and you can hardly refine an apple so what IS it about? (Washington Reds excuded, if you thought 90s Golden Delicious were cotton wool WRs are cotton wool refined)
However I think darker varieties of apple have more taste and you can hardly refine an apple so what IS it about? (Washington Reds excuded, if you thought 90s Golden Delicious were cotton wool WRs are cotton wool refined)
"If a man speaks, and there isn't a woman to hear him, is he still wrong?"
- icomefromalanddownunder
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Re: Chemists, food buffs and everyone else please...
Hendrik wrote:Why does dark food always have a much deeper flavour than its light counterpart?
Examples:
Sugar
Bread
Rice
Pasta
Beer
Wine
Rum (alcohol in general)
Chocolate
Onions
Please note, I don't mean stronger flavour (white onions are stronger than red), I mean fullness and depth and range of flavours (red onions are all of those things more than white ones).
Does anyone have an explanation for this? Has the area been explored? Is the dark pigment in said foods actually linked to depth of flavour? Is there some chemical found in all of them called Darkinol, Darkamine, Polyhydrodarkide?
Can anyone think of any examples where darker isn't deeper in flavour?
HELP!
Hmmm, OK, I'll give this a go.
Red wine has polyphenols (a class of tannins) in it , which are extracted predominantly from grape seeds and skins. They are astringent and add to mouthfeel. The predominant grape seed tannins are flavan-3-ols, which are repeating units of the monomers catechin, epicatechin, and their gallates. The monomers, dimers, up to heptamers are predominantly bitter, but the larger polymers are astringent rather than bitter.
Sorry you asked yet?

Dark rum has, I think, more sugar than white rum. Sugar adds weight to the palate, as does alcohol.
Dark chocolate has higher levels of polyphenols than milk chocolate - up to 80% cocoa, as opposed to 30%.
When we feel like torturing undergrads, er, I mean, teaching them basic sensory science, we make them hold their noses and close their eyes, then their partner places a fruit flavoured sweet in their mouth. Without being able to sense the aroma of the sweet (because they are blocking their nose) all they can taste is sweet (except for one person who could taste red: not a taste, but a colour, doh). Unblock the nose, sense the aroma, and identify the taste.
Another favourite test is to colour lemon jelly - usually red or green. Invariably, most tasters will identify the red jelly as strawberry. Colour plays a big part in our perception of taste, so you could try getting someone to blindfold you, then feed you white bread and brown bread to see if you can tell the difference. I'm guessing that you will, as they smell quite different to me, and have very different textures.
Returning to chocolate - white chocolate is, to me, much richer than dark chocolate. That is, it has a much heavier mouthfeel because of the higher fat content, but less cocoa flavour, because it contains less cocoa extract.
Sorry, this reply is getting very disjointed: it's very nearly 1am, one of my cats is lolling across my keyboard, and my brain is ready for bed. To summarise, yes, this has been extensively studied. No, there is not one particular chemical responsible for the phenomenon: polyphenols in wines, anthocyanins in fruit, malt in beer, cocoa extract in chocolate, blah , blah, blah.
Hope this makes sense.
Caroline
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Re: Chemists, food buffs and everyone else please...
Except that "brown" bread that looks and tasts like white bread + dye!icomefromalanddownunder wrote:blindfold you, then feed you white bread and brown bread to see if you can tell the difference. I'm guessing that you will, as they smell quite different to me, and have very different textures.
Andrew Harrison
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- englishangel
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Re: Chemists, food buffs and everyone else please...
Never buy the stuff, now wholemeal that is a different story.AndrewH wrote:Except that "brown" bread that looks and tasts like white bread + dye!icomefromalanddownunder wrote:blindfold you, then feed you white bread and brown bread to see if you can tell the difference. I'm guessing that you will, as they smell quite different to me, and have very different textures.
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- icomefromalanddownunder
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Re: Chemists, food buffs and everyone else please...
Correct, because that's what it is. Buy wholemeal (made from wholemeal flour), rye, whatever, and you will definitely sense a difference.AndrewH wrote:Except that "brown" bread that looks and tasts like white bread + dye!icomefromalanddownunder wrote:blindfold you, then feed you white bread and brown bread to see if you can tell the difference. I'm guessing that you will, as they smell quite different to me, and have very different textures.
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the 'refining = loss of flavour' theory works in many cases, but what about rice, onions and other wholefoods where the darker is deeper?
and even in the cases where refining is the answer, what are the dark, flavoursome chemicals which are lost?
my basic knowledge of chemistry tells me that they could be bromine derivatives, certain nitrogen derivatives, possibly iron, dunno.
white chocolate does have a richer texture, indeed, but the flavour is less deep (you get 'sweet', other than that there is a lot less than darker chocolate, for better or for worse)
question remains, though valient efforts to answer it, keep trying!
and even in the cases where refining is the answer, what are the dark, flavoursome chemicals which are lost?
my basic knowledge of chemistry tells me that they could be bromine derivatives, certain nitrogen derivatives, possibly iron, dunno.
white chocolate does have a richer texture, indeed, but the flavour is less deep (you get 'sweet', other than that there is a lot less than darker chocolate, for better or for worse)
question remains, though valient efforts to answer it, keep trying!
- icomefromalanddownunder
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Hi again HendrikHendrik wrote:the 'refining = loss of flavour' theory works in many cases, but what about rice, onions and other wholefoods where the darker is deeper?
and even in the cases where refining is the answer, what are the dark, flavoursome chemicals which are lost?
my basic knowledge of chemistry tells me that they could be bromine derivatives, certain nitrogen derivatives, possibly iron, dunno.
white chocolate does have a richer texture, indeed, but the flavour is less deep (you get 'sweet', other than that there is a lot less than darker chocolate, for better or for worse)
question remains, though valient efforts to answer it, keep trying!
Without wishing to be rude, I don't think that you are going to be satisifed until someone tells you precisely what you believe. Which, in a way, I already have.
The more colour there is in fruit, the more anthocyanins (tannins) they contain, the more flavour and mouthfeel they have.
The more colour there is in wine, the more polyphenols (tannins) the wine contains, and the more astringency it will induce, therefore the greater mouthfeel it will have.
Tannins are primarily strings of phenolic rings - no bromine or iron necessary for their colour.
The chemicals which are removed in processing do not necessarily have a taste (sweet, salt, sour, bitter, umami or fat) - aromatic esters and astringent polyphenols all contribute to flavour: an amalgam of taste, aroma and mouthfeel.
Here endeth today's instalment of Sensory Evaluation 101.
- icomefromalanddownunder
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Because that wasn't what I wished to say.Hendrik wrote:Hi Caroline,
without wishing to be rude, I did A-level chemisty and seem to know more than you give me credit for.
If your answer was "phenols and other aromatics account simultaneously for both colouring and falvour", why didn't you just say that, we're not stupid!
Hendrik
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I also did A level chemistry and IMHO Caroline's reply was far more understandable than Hendrik's last para. Please remember, Hendrik, that what we write on the forum is for the benefit of everyone - chemistry buff as well as piccollo player, apron sewer and channel hopper and has to be wriotten for the LCDicomefromalanddownunder wrote:Because that wasn't what I wished to say.Hendrik wrote:Hi Caroline,
without wishing to be rude, I did A-level chemisty and seem to know more than you give me credit for.
If your answer was "phenols and other aromatics account simultaneously for both colouring and falvour", why didn't you just say that, we're not stupid!
Hendrik
which is Lowest Common Denominator and not Liquid Crystal Diode or whatever (just to spite the peep who doesn't like my acronyms)
s.i.n (which at least one person understands)
- DavebytheSea
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Re: Chemists, food buffs and everyone else please...
hmmmm....... strikes me this could be open to all kinds of abuse.icomefromalanddownunder wrote:When we feel like torturing undergrads, er, I mean, teaching them basic sensory science, we make them hold their noses and close their eyes, then their partner places a fruit flavoured sweet in their mouth.
Caroline
........ there was once a very naughty party game when people had over-indulged ...........
David Eastburn (Prep B and Mid A 1947-55)
- icomefromalanddownunder
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Re: Chemists, food buffs and everyone else please...
DavebytheSea wrote:hmmmm....... strikes me this could be open to all kinds of abuse.icomefromalanddownunder wrote:When we feel like torturing undergrads, er, I mean, teaching them basic sensory science, we make them hold their noses and close their eyes, then their partner places a fruit flavoured sweet in their mouth.
Caroline
........ there was once a very naughty party game when people had over-indulged ...........



Yes, well, omitted to mention that said partner has to slap on some latex before picking up the sweetie - ooops, should probably clarify that this is a latex glove
