Unofficial Christ's Hospital Forum

A cultural exchange? We sent pupils to Australia. They sent us Dame Edna.

sejintenej wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 4:07 pm

AMP wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 12:01 pm Finances apart, CH is, as it has always been, for paupers.
Children from broken homes or orphans in childrens homes.
If you can afford full fees, then your children have opportunity. They don't need CH.

one slight element to the above; the fee is based on your income for the individual year. When i was there it was clear that if (for example) your widowed mother married a rich man or got a well paid new job you would not be expected to leave but the contribution would rise accordingly.

I was primarily thinking of pre entry, but you make a good point.
Likewise, if a single mother went back to work when the child(ren) was a bit older, the school didn't clobber her with fees immediately. There was usually a year's grace and then a very reasonable contribution asked from someone on a modest income.

AMP wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 9:22 pm

sejintenej wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 4:07 pm

AMP wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 12:01 pm Finances apart, CH is, as it has always been, for paupers.
Children from broken homes or orphans in childrens homes.
If you can afford full fees, then your children have opportunity. They don't need CH.

one slight element to the above; the fee is based on your income for the individual year. When i was there it was clear that if (for example) your widowed mother married a rich man or got a well paid new job you would not be expected to leave but the contribution would rise accordingly.

I was primarily thinking of pre entry, but you make a good point.
Likewise, if a single mother went back to work when the child(ren) was a bit older, the school didn't clobber her with fees immediately. There was usually a year's grace and then a very reasonable contribution asked from someone on a modest income.

My father used to joke that he made a profit by sending me to CH. At least, I think he was joking...

I know my father was expecting that Hertfordshire would expect him to pay the same sort of contribution to my grant when I went to Oxford as he had paid to CH. Nothing like it, one year he was asked to give me just £6. I remember the figure £120 for CH but don't know whether that was per term or for the full year.

Pe.A wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 12:55 pm

loringa wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 11:19 am

Foureyes wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 10:58 am I shall not go over the now well-known arguments against this except to remark that it often seems to me that all the building and expansion of facilities is more to satisfy management/masters amour propre than for the benefit of children. One very, very expensive undertaking that upset me greatly was a Summer Holiday 'outing' of 14 days duration to Australia for 70-odd pupils and seven staff in (about) 2012-2013. I know that the Head Master at the time was an Australian by birth (but has now seen the light and settled in Sussex) but even so!!

I couldn't agree more: a classic example of the 'best being the enemy of the good'. Christ's Hospital has great facilities but it really shouldn't be competing with fee-paying institutions; it is, quite frankly, not what the place is for. A 14-day jolly to Australia for 77 individuals must have been fun but there wouldn't have been much change from £0.25M, enough to fund a pupil though Christ's Hospital for the full 7 years from Year 7 to Year 13!

Would your criticism include all school trips? What exactly was this 14 day 'jolly' for...?

I am not against all school trips in principle but they have to be both inclusive so every pupil has a chance to go whilst, at the same time, not being a cost on the institution if it is not one that said institution can afford without any sort of downstream effect.

I can't imagine that the parents of every one of the 70-odd pupils from Christ's Hospital who went on the trip to Australia could afford it themsleves so the assumption must be that the foundation helped out. That's great when there is unlimited funding available but that does not appear to be the case for Christ's Hospital which is always appealing for more money.

I admit I don't know the full details; in fact, until it was raised on this thread, I didn't know it had taken place. My point was, and still is, that these things are all 'nice to haves' (along with another new sports centre, single bedrooms for students, detached houses for members of staff and a raft of other initiatives). Rather than attracting full fee-payers to fund these projects, I can't help thinking Christ's Hospital would be better off living within its means and offering all its places to those who do not have the options that the full fee-payers have. The whole point of Christ's Hospital is that it offers a first class education to those who couldn't otherwise afford it - isn't it?

Foureyes invites a debate as to why the international megarich would want to send their children to this country what with Coronavirus, etc. I would submit that the answer is heritage and tradition. The universality of the English language, our well-publicised but now defunct empire, our traditions (well known through our film industry (Passage To India et al), Brideshead, Downton, Hugh Grant......Foreigners from the East seem to be bedazzled by our past. Less so foreigners from developed Western Europe who generally seem to have their own perfectly good traditions, including schooling their children to a decent standard.

The reason I kick up so much about this country is because I truly believe that tradition and heritage have long been used to anaesthetise us to the malign effects of what is happening to us in the here and now. The sixth richest country in the world but with homelessness and food banks endemic. Large numbers of households claiming that they are just one paycheck away from the street. Every time there's an Olympics, Royal Wedding, Royal Jubilee, people crow: "Oh look, don't we still do these things well!" Yes, I sometimes think they're about the only thing we do well, considering our monumental trade gap ("let others run our companies and grow our food," said Thatcher and Lawson in the late 1980s). We are reliant on the kindness of strangers, particularly Chinese investment capital. But what happens if we have a stand-off with China over Hong Kong - which we should do if we had a halfway ballsy Prime Minister (or one who even appeared to be awake) Tradition is fine in its place but its place is not at the centre of things. Useful tradition, yes; but not sentiment which merely holds up progress.

rockfreak wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 7:36 pm Foureyes invites a debate as to why the international megarich would want to send their children to this country what with Coronavirus, etc. I would submit that the answer is heritage and tradition. The universality of the English language, our well-publicised but now defunct empire, our traditions (well known through our film industry (Passage To India et al), Brideshead, Downton, Hugh Grant......Foreigners from the East seem to be bedazzled by our past.

Perfect for future trade negotiations... : /

rockfreak wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 7:36 pm Foureyes invites a debate as to why the international megarich would want to send their children to this country what with Coronavirus, etc. I would submit that the answer is heritage and tradition. The universality of the English language, our well-publicised but now defunct empire, our traditions (well known through our film industry (Passage To India et al), Brideshead, Downton, Hugh Grant......Foreigners from the East seem to be bedazzled by our past. Less so foreigners from developed Western Europe who generally seem to have their own perfectly good traditions, including schooling their children to a decent standard.

The reason I kick up so much about this country is because I truly believe that tradition and heritage have long been used to anaesthetise us to the malign effects of what is happening to us in the here and now. The sixth richest country in the world but with homelessness and food banks endemic. Large numbers of households claiming that they are just one paycheck away from the street. Every time there's an Olympics, Royal Wedding, Royal Jubilee, people crow: "Oh look, don't we still do these things well!" Yes, I sometimes think they're about the only thing we do well, considering our monumental trade gap ("let others run our companies and grow our food," said Thatcher and Lawson in the late 1980s). We are reliant on the kindness of strangers, particularly Chinese investment capital. But what happens if we have a stand-off with China over Hong Kong - which we should do if we had a halfway ballsy Prime Minister (or one who even appeared to be awake) Tradition is fine in its place but its place is not at the centre of things. Useful tradition, yes; but not sentiment which merely holds up progress.

So what does the existence of independent schools got to do with homelessness/food banks etc etc...?

Pe.A wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 1:46 am So what does the existence of independent schools got to do with homelessness/food banks etc etc...?

The answer, of course, is nothing; the far left, however, love to conflate the relative privilege / wealth of one part of society with the relative poverty / disadvantage of another part. For them, it is a zero-sum game.

Whilst, on the one hand, poverty can, in theory at least, be alleviated by taxing the wealthy more and redistributing this additional money to those less well off, we already do this through our progressive taxation system. Unfortunately, pouring money into new school buildings as proved so popular during the Blair / Brown years is no guarantee of better outcomes, and there remains a demand for independent schools.

The irony? There didn't need to be. Rather than abolish Grammar Schools in the 1960s, if only the money and effort spent on building the Comprehensive system had been spent on improving the Secondary Moderns then we wouldn't have the problems that we face today which leads parents to choose to educate their children privately.

Of course, no government really wants to get rid of independent schools. Quite apart from their acting as revenue earners from overseas pupils, every child that is educated privately saves the state approximately £3000 per year in not having to educate them in state schools - and there are 615,000 pupils in independent schools. Obviously not all of these are entitled to UK state education but, nonetheless, some 7% of all British children (18% of those over 16) are educated privately (if one is to believe the internet).

But back to your question. Mr Redshaw is a true believer and for him this is an article of faith; in his mind there is a direct correlation between poverty and homelessness, and independent schools. If only the money I spent on educating my dd was spent on alleviating homelessness then the problem would be solved.

So let's take a reality check. Say private education costs £20k per annum (because that's what I pay) for the £20k to go to the State rather than my dd's school would mean roughly increasing my tax / NI take by 100%. Even Mr Corbyn would have baulked at that, not least because that is the increase that all his MPs would have had to pay and, because we already have a progressive tax system, so would many of his constituents and all would have seen a significant tax hike.

None of this is remotely of interest to Mr Redshaw.

rockfreak wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 7:36 pm Foureyes invites a debate as to why the international megarich would want to send their children to this country what with Coronavirus, etc. I would submit that the answer is heritage and tradition. The universality of the English language, our well-publicised but now defunct empire, our traditions (well known through our film industry (Passage To India et al), Brideshead, Downton, Hugh Grant......Foreigners from the East seem to be bedazzled by our past. Less so foreigners from developed Western Europe who generally seem to have their own perfectly good traditions, including schooling their children to a decent standard.

Quite often the megarich come from areas where the rule of law is not even as firmly established as it is in the UK, I believe that in Imperial China, there was a saying that '...if the winds of Heaven change...' meaning that you could be killed and/or robbed of all your wealth at any time by a change in political fortunes. This was also common in Iberian historically, the Holy Office in Spain, aka the Inquisition, was a 'self-financing regulatory agency' that got to keep the booty from its victims' estates (whereas in the USA today there are lots of asset forfeiture laws which are much milder). Anyway, however rich you are in some countries, if you don't stay on the right side of the winds of Heaven, you may find yourself in prison or poverty in short order. So much easier to bear the tension if your children are in the UK, can speak English, have a guardian and perhaps a fund of sorts to keep them safe, even if you can't get out or your money is gone.

Not always the consideration, but something that some might regard as important.

I would expect that the trip to Australia was a sports trip (rugby?) - the school have done a number of international sports trips over the years and my memory is that the children going fundraised for nearly all of it...

Great Plum wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 10:37 pm I would expect that the trip to Australia was a sports trip (rugby?) - the school have done a number of international sports trips over the years and my memory is that the children going fundraised for nearly all of it...

Thank you, son. You are correct. Monumental amounts of fund-raising for the following :94 to Australia, 97 to South Africa, 00 to Barbados (co-ed), 05 to South Africa, 08 to Barbados and 09 to Australia (co-ed).
None since.
Speaks volumes really.
Ignorance is bliss.

Pe.A wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 1:46 am

rockfreak wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 7:36 pm Foureyes invites a debate as to why the international megarich would want to send their children to this country what with Coronavirus, etc. I would submit that the answer is heritage and tradition. The universality of the English language, our well-publicised but now defunct empire, our traditions (well known through our film industry (Passage To India et al), Brideshead, Downton, Hugh Grant......Foreigners from the East seem to be bedazzled by our past. Less so foreigners from developed Western Europe who generally seem to have their own perfectly good traditions, including schooling their children to a decent standard.

The reason I kick up so much about this country is because I truly believe that tradition and heritage have long been used to anaesthetise us to the malign effects of what is happening to us in the here and now. The sixth richest country in the world but with homelessness and food banks endemic. Large numbers of households claiming that they are just one paycheck away from the street. Every time there's an Olympics, Royal Wedding, Royal Jubilee, people crow: "Oh look, don't we still do these things well!" Yes, I sometimes think they're about the only thing we do well, considering our monumental trade gap ("let others run our companies and grow our food," said Thatcher and Lawson in the late 1980s). We are reliant on the kindness of strangers, particularly Chinese investment capital. But what happens if we have a stand-off with China over Hong Kong - which we should do if we had a halfway ballsy Prime Minister (or one who even appeared to be awake) Tradition is fine in its place but its place is not at the centre of things. Useful tradition, yes; but not sentiment which merely holds up progress.

So what does the existence of independent schools got to do with homelessness/food banks etc etc...?

It's central to it. If you can't work that out then your education at CH has been wasted. They're not"independent" schools, they're private schools. The Orwellian title was dreamed up some decades ago to confuse people.

rockfreak wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 7:36 pm

Having worked in several far-flung nations I would put the reason down to honesty, respect, responsibility, common decency and perhaps going beyond the expected, all of which freaky detests and of which he demands the abolition.
Coronavirus? Don't be so b***** stupid; everything goes back far before Wuhan and covid so don't muddy the waters.

No, historically our human exports tended to be ex-public school types who adopted a conservative approach in dealing with the locals. The behaviour of many public school educated company bosses during the 1929 economic catastrophe is a good example. I have heard comments about merkins being all about what they can grab for the minimum work. Germans have a reputation - the towel at the end of the runway. Italians.... French ..... all have reputations which may not necessarily be valid whereas our reputation was very good.

Three examples; I was queueing for a US visa in Lagos when the yanks wanted me to jump the queue to which I vocally objected; one up for Britain, one down for the Americans. My company's Brazilian owner had visited a German company trying to get their agreement to a proposed joint venture but was turned down. My international director got the same answer. When I went in we had the contract in fifteen minutes because I put myself and not some underling on the line and could give British nationalistic undertakngs. Elsewhere our US and Brazilian lawyers had spent nearly a week and failed to get an agreement but when I assured the other party that the proposal was to their benefit we had the business in minutes. Being British, polite, understanding of the other party's worries and calm did the trick. The freak wants to destroy whatever reputation we have retained.

More specifically my CH education showed up in a couple of occasions against foreigners. Comversation involvingthe International VP of one of the world's largest banks when he thought that an international banking conference held at Marrakesh had been in some US state and asked which one. Overseas borrowers were explaining progress on the building of their float glass factory using the Pilkington process. From having had to learn about the process in science classes it was immediately apparent that they were pulling the wool over the eyes of all the other lending banks. The joys of a wide ranging public school education - I didn't get the bee keeping lessons but I could have, or even amateur wireless, but I learned ballroom and Scottish dancing - what state school ofers such a range of teaching????

rockfreak wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 8:41 pm

Pe.A wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 1:46 am
So what does the existence of independent schools got to do with homelessness/food banks etc etc...?

It's central to it. If you can't work that out then your education at CH has been wasted. They're not"independent" schools, they're private schools. The Orwellian title was dreamed up some decades ago to confuse people.

Pe.A posed a question; you not only failed to answer it but, as you invariably do, you went on the attack. Please would you explain the direct, causal link between the relative privilege of one group and the poverty of another. You clearly think it is a zero-sum game but it really isn't. My advantages don't have to lead to others being disadvantaged; indeed, I may be in a better position myself to help those less well off than me.