Unofficial Christ's Hospital Forum

englishangel wrote:A question for that new chap methinks. But the fees would have to be paid to the Foundation rather than the school. I think charity has to be a donation rather than an invoiced amount.

But what do I know? Nothing

yes, this now manifests itself as the "oxfam/charity shop" question. If you donate goods, oxfam can claim back the gift aid on the amount your goods sell for (as you have given something to the charity", if however you buy something from the charity, then you cannot claim gift aid.

BUT, the charity shop has to offer to the donor the amount claimed back, less a 'handling' fee. I don't think that so far we have had anyone ask for the money.

There's more than one way of skinning a cat.

http://www.fismagazine.co.uk/fundraisin ... saries.asp

I'm sure it wouldn't take too much imagination for CH to do something similar and tailor to it's own requirements if indeed it is not already.

Well, I'm sorry Onegun and others, but I WON'T change my view.

I was adopted. My (adoptive) Dad, (an author), died when I was 7. He spent the last 2 years of his life in hospital. I can only just vaguely remember him. He served in WW1 and WW2. After his death, my late mother was left almost penny-less. Through family contacts, my Mother eventually got me into CH.

OK, at the time I didn't appreciate it.

My view today is that the school was founded many decades ago for children of distressed parents.

If the school really needs to charge fees to make ends meet, then allow say, 23% of places to fee-paying parents who should be charged approximately double what Eton, Charterhouse or Rugby charge their fee-paying parents. THEN, maybe the school ethos could be returned.

Sorry all, I'm not in the best of moods today, but those of you who have known me for some time will know, I say it like it is !

J.R. wrote: If the school really needs to charge fees to make ends meet, then allow say, 23% of places to fee-paying parents who should be charged approximately double what Eton, Charterhouse or Rugby charge their fee-paying parents. THEN, maybe the school ethos could be returned.

Would parents be prepared to pay double what Eton, Charterhouse etc charge? Wouldn't they opt to actually send their kids to Eton if it was half the cost?

Duplicate

Well JR, I with you on the last post. Once more into the breech.

This is not a question of CH moving towards the Winchester, Eton, Radley models, or them moving towards CH - the two models are cosmic distances apart, and Eton does not have a hope of contributing to bursary support on the CH scale for decades. Just look at both sets of accounts. Knowing to a varying degree a number of Bursars at major HMC schools, CH is held in extremely high esteem for its true charitable status, most of the rest of us are working on single figure % of turnover available for bursaries, and most of us have to rely on slightly overcharging other parents so that we can select some really bright local pupils to benefit from and bring benefit to our schools who would otherwise not be able to benefit. Most do not have substantial endowment or investment funds. When that is the case, there is very little benefit from being a charity, but once a charity always a charity. My own school benefits to the tune of about £80k a year reduction in business rates, but gives out about £350k in bursaries and this pattern is mirrorred across the sector. The constraints/benefits of a charity is that there aint any profit - all the margin, if there is any, has to be ploughed back.

For CH, this is a relatively short term problem, as long as the government in power believes that it is doing a good job, and that only happens if CH sticks to its historic and rightful charitable aim of providing assistance to the needy - not the slightly less well off, or the stinking rich - the needy. It seems to me that the solution lies not in expanding into the rich boys market, but contracting and cutting frills and flash, and getting back to the core - even if that is just for the short term - (and just about anything is short term with a 450 year history.) Just think about it - with such a tiny percentage paying full fees, how high do you have to raise their fees to really make a difference? And when you do so, how much do you have to spend on frills and flash to keep those parents happy? Not much margin in that to help with the shortfall.

I have much sympathy with ailurophile and others who are facing tough times and tough decisions but I suspect that CH is in a bit of tight pinch, and they are exploring all ways to get out of it.

btw The fees as gift aid is a non-starter, they are specifically excluded, as is payment for invoiced services, or specifying the gift for a particular individual. Others have tried alternatives but I'm afraid such schemes have foundered on the rocks of human greed, some examples of which have been talked about earlier in this thread.

lonelymom wrote:

J.R. wrote: If the school really needs to charge fees to make ends meet, then allow say, 23% of places to fee-paying parents who should be charged approximately double what Eton, Charterhouse or Rugby charge their fee-paying parents. THEN, maybe the school ethos could be returned.

Would parents be prepared to pay double what Eton, Charterhouse etc charge? Wouldn't they opt to actually send their kids to Eton if it was half the cost?

But you have to come from the ..... "Wite sort of famwily" to get into Eton.

Intelligence has absolutely nothing to do with it !

Oh yes, silly me, I forgowt.

There's another forum that I look at from time to time, and a lady on it has set up a poll asking for people to vote on whether she should send her son to 'Westminser, Winchester or Eton?' There wasn't a box for 'couldn't care less!' Do you think she would be from the 'wite sort of famwily', JR?

TrueBlue wrote:
btw The fees as gift aid is a non-starter, they are specifically excluded, as is payment for invoiced services, or specifying the gift for a particular individual. Others have tried alternatives but I'm afraid such schemes have foundered on the rocks of human greed, some examples of which have been talked about earlier in this thread.

Noel,

I knew fees were specifically excluded although reading back I didn't express it very well.

My thought was to set up some sort of voluntary donation which parents would engage with if they could see the benefits both for themselves and their children.

The link I posted shows how it could work.

I take your point re parental greed though as you are "in the trade" and will probably have seen it all too often in practice.

Just trying to come up with something which costs nothing in real terms but generates revenue.

I should balance my last post with a note to say that I have also seen the other end of the spectrum, with self effacing and modest people anonymously providing support for others in tragic circumstances, but refusing any recognition for themselves.

Mid A 15 wrote:There's more than one way of skinning a cat.

http://www.fismagazine.co.uk/fundraisin ... saries.asp

I'm sure it wouldn't take too much imagination for CH to do something similar and tailor to it's own requirements if indeed it is not already.

Thanks Andy, good site. the paper version of this mag has received my normal "filing in the round floor level filing cabinet" technique but having given the site a good look, it makes some good points. The gift aid idea was tried here some time ago, but did not receive enough support to make a difference to the project it was to fund. This meant that a compulsory fee supplement had to be introduced, which in turn meant that those who had already given wanted those donations to count towards the supplement, which meant that the gift aid had to be unwound. Just before my time thank goodness. I think the point I would make is that whilst there are some excellent ideas around (and we should not shut our minds to the possibility that someone else has good ideas (memo to self)) the longer term implications need to be carefully considered.

Back to the site - I love the "Rogue Parent" blog - this is going to be required reading for me.
http://www.fismagazine.co.uk/the_rogue_parent.asp

Actually our local authority has bursary places for ETON but I wouldn't send our son there. I firmly believe that as a poor child ina bunch or rich kids he would go one of 2 ways. Very depressed and bullied or try and be class joker / the one who does silly things. At a place like eton that leads down the road of substances etc. My wife went to a girls private school that used to go to dances etc with malborough and a class mate was also related to a high ranking etonian current politician so I have some idea what I am talking about.

Personally I think the mistake was CH spending millions to try and compete with the flash schools on creature comforts - why ? If you are not trying to compete for the same parents then why compete head on. Market yourself on your Unique Selling Point the charitable side not "our dormitories are as nice as Cranleigh's so pay us as much". Okay there was a need for modernisation but in my opinion other than a good makeover there was nothing wrong with the set up of for example LHA in late 80's. Bottom dorm was dayroom, top dorm for UF (that had gone up) and GE, Downstairs front of house 3-4 person studies for deps, Above changing rooms and other random rooms around the house 1-2 person studies for Grecians.

All it needed was decent heating and curtains in the top dorm, maybe a couple of partitions to shrink it to something like 4 8 person dorms that would hold heat better. Why rip out the changing rooms apart form the fact that the girls I believe found them a bit open - cubicles around the showers and a couple of doors would surely have solved most of that.

The current set up is in my view much better than they are going to get when they go to Uni and after their first year find themselves sharing a scummy 1890's terraced house with 3 other students and using a kitchen the size of a broom cupboard

There was no problem with the classroom accommodation.

J.R wrote:But you have to come from the ..... "Wite sort of famwily" to get into Eton.

Intelligence has absolutely nothing to do with it !

This isn't the case. The entry is by exam. The current headmaster is the first member of his family to not only attend university, but actually the first to stay in school after 15.

Things have changed at Eton, as things change everywhere, including CH. For example, now that single parent families are "normal", it is hard to suggest that a child living with one parent "needs" a CH education more than one in a two parent family where the parents even have a certificate.

If schools are to retain their charitable status, then I would argue that they should not only supply bursaries and scholarships, but should also behave in a charitable way to those who then get in difficulty.