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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:21 am
by richardb
Otter wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:23 pm
richardb wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:09 pm
Sadly there is still no criminal offence which enables a teacher turning a blind eye to sexual abuse or covering up for it to be prosecuted.
There is no appetite in government to introduce such an offence given what are seen as other priorities.
If one parent abuses their child and the other parent, in the same household, knows about it but does nothing, can the latter be prosecuted for anything?
If so, then it's sad that this wouldn't apply to a teacher in loco parentis at a boarding school.
Surprising that it still isn't a criminal offence, as anything in the vein of "going after paedos and their enablers" is always a vote-winner.
The principal legislative provision protecting children from cruelty is section 1 of the Children & Young Persons Act 1933.
It is rather wordy so most easily posted as a link:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Ge ... /section/1
While it might on first reading cover staff at CH who turned a blind eye to abuse of all sorts, the difficulty comes in its practical application as the sort of behaviour complained of is likely to be hard to prove to the required standard and then there is the problem of showing the causal link to harm.
Of course any member of staff doing nothing is exposing a child to the risk of harm, but there is little appetite to prosecute in the absence of injury.
Re: Elizabeth Cairncross
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:36 pm
by AMP
Now a lay Canon at Bristol Cathedral, responsible for governance.
https://twitter.com/IizabethC/status/13 ... 28866?s=20
Re: Elizabeth Cairncross
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:40 pm
by Otter
Utterly baffling and infuriating - since the court disclosures of her inaction, she has become a school governor and now a cathedral canon.
The phrase "hiding in plain sight" comes to mind - although no hiding really, as her inaction in the CH abuse is public record.
Who does vetting for these places? There is more to vetting than a DBS check.
Re: Elizabeth Cairncross
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:58 pm
by AMP
The Archbishop of Canterbury gave assurances after the publication of IICSA that the Church would no longer just stand by.
I plan to write to the Bishop of Bristol, cc Head of Safeguarding at Salisbury Cathedral
Re: Elizabeth Cairncross
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:44 pm
by loringa
Otter wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:40 pm
Who does vetting for these places? There is more to vetting than a DBS check.
Indeed there is but I suspect that the DBS check is the only formal process that any of these authorities actually employ. Sadly, unless the type of positive vetting used by the security services is employed then she will likely only have been assessed on what she has actually done rather than what she may have failed to do.
Re: Elizabeth Cairncross
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:22 pm
by sejintenej
loringa wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:44 pm
Otter wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:40 pm
Who does vetting for these places? There is more to vetting than a DBS check.
Indeed there is but I suspect that the DBS check is the only formal process that any of these authorities actually employ. Sadly, unless the type of positive vetting used by the security services is employed then she will likely only have been assessed on what she has actually done rather than what she may have failed to do.
As mentioned previously, around here if you were ever adopted you are automatically persona non grata, adopted a second time you are the devil incarnate - and I never told them that after the two deaths I was informally supervised ..................
Re: Elizabeth Cairncross
Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:24 pm
by scrub
Otter wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:40 pmWho does vetting for these places? There is more to vetting than a DBS check.
The phrases "mistakes were made, but we have learned" and "it just couldn't happen now with the systems we have in place" do a lot of heavy lifting when former senior staff members get promoted or have honours bestowed upon them and would seem to answer most questions that a thorough vetting process might ask.
The cynical side of me would suggest that when someone of a certain mindset is looking at candidates to fill a particular position, having experience of a coming through a scandal unscathed is more valuable than having prevented one from happening in the first place.
Re: Elizabeth Cairncross
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 12:18 pm
by Otter
Just spotted that she is no longer on the list of governors at Salisbury, and a search for her name on the school's website yields absolutely no results.
Checked Companies House, and turns out she resigned in February 2021:
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... pointments
Curious that there would be no announcement on the school website and that any mention of her there has totally vanished. Google also has almost no results compared to her high profile at Wells.
Re: Elizabeth Cairncross
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:44 pm
by scrub
Otter wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 12:18 pmCurious that there would be no announcement on the school website and that any mention of her there has totally vanished. Google also has almost no results compared to her high profile at Wells.
The right to be forgotten.
Part of the EU's GDPR laws which, as far as I can see, the UK has decided to retain an equivalent measure on. For now anyway. Make the right application using the right words and you can have your record scrubbed from the easily searchable part of the internet, as long as the search is being done by someone in the EU or any country that has the same laws.
Re: Elizabeth Cairncross
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:05 am
by Otter
It would be extremely interesting if these rights were successfully exercised for this.
I used to work for the Probation Service, and I know of countless people with very old and very minor convictions from their youth, which in no way reflect the people they are today and are of zero interest to the public, their employers or anyone else (and are arguably contrary to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act as they were "spent" decades ago), who have tried so many times to get Google to delete 20-year-old articles about their convictions, and Google have refused, citing insufficient grounds or overwhelming public interest in their 1998 conviction for stealing a chocolate bar. So it would be astonishing, and a true case of "one rule for those with connections, another for the rest of us" if someone could have purely the fact that they were governor of a particular school, with no hint of wrongdoing there, deleted from the internet.
Re: Elizabeth Cairncross
Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:49 am
by robert totterdell
Two letters have been sent to the Bishop of Bristol concerning the suitability of Cairncross to hold her latest appointment in the Cathedral both of which are powerful - one especially. She is no longer Chair of Governors at Salisbury Cathedral School. I think she is still a Governor at the Cornish School and she is still a Director at Aiglon College in Switzerland. I can confirm that I have spoken to two other Directors of that school who raised 'concerns' about her appointment at the time. I have written to the new head there. I assume you all know who the old head was and his issues (and connections to Martin and Starehe in Kenya)?
Re: Elizabeth Cairncross
Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:30 pm
by sejintenej
scrub wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:44 pm
The right to be forgotten.
Part of the EU's GDPR laws which, as far as I can see, the UK has decided to retain an equivalent measure on. For now anyway. Make the right application using the right words and you can have your record scrubbed from the easily searchable part of the internet, as long as the search is being done by someone in the EU or any country that has the same laws.
Tim; it is simple to Google and make it appear that you are located in another country - which you can choose. I am frequently being offered this service by my browser company (Firefox) and many others for just a few quid a month and there are a few companies which did it for free. Tried a freebie once but was very slow
Re: Elizabeth Cairncross
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:04 pm
by tea
Otter wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:17 am
…Omissions are not as strongly prosecutable in England and Wales as in many other jurisdictions. E.g. we don't have a "non-assistance to persons in danger" law, which is common across Europe. In England and Wales, if you walk past a person who is drowning and do nothing, you aren't guilty of anything - unless you have a duty of care to that person (e.g. you're their guardian, teacher, etc.). Otherwise, you have no legal obligation and will not be punished by leaving them to die… I thought a teacher or other school staff was also one of those cases where you have a legal duty of care and can be held liable if you fail to act?
Probably too long ago to sue them if I even could for leaving me and another kid behind in London on a school trip. We were 14/15, (First time alone in a city and not a clue of its geography). Early 90s, no mobile, no money and no clue. Luckily the other kid knew which station we needed to get to for a CH train and a big issue seller let us beg with him to get travel cards, terrifying for a kid from a small rural village.
I don’t remember hearing anything about it from Cairncross the Child Protection Officer, I think we were told off in class for not paying attention to where we were walking in the group on the trip, by the teacher who should have checked we were there before driving off, (after the museum on the walk to the minibuses we were with the group but didn’t notice it split into two and followed the wrong bus group, the teachers had parked at different locations. We were told to go to the other bus which had already left).
My housemaster smiled and said “ah you’re back” when I finally returned late in the evening, so they knew we were missing, but no apology or asking if we were ok that I can remember, I doubt they told my guardian as they never mentioned it to me. Still have anxiety in big cities.
Re: Elizabeth Cairncross
Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:39 am
by Pe.A
tea wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:04 pm
Otter wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:17 am
…Omissions are not as strongly prosecutable in England and Wales as in many other jurisdictions. E.g. we don't have a "non-assistance to persons in danger" law, which is common across Europe. In England and Wales, if you walk past a person who is drowning and do nothing, you aren't guilty of anything - unless you have a duty of care to that person (e.g. you're their guardian, teacher, etc.). Otherwise, you have no legal obligation and will not be punished by leaving them to die… I thought a teacher or other school staff was also one of those cases where you have a legal duty of care and can be held liable if you fail to act?
Probably too long ago to sue them if I even could for leaving me and another kid behind in London on a school trip. We were 14/15, (First time alone in a city and not a clue of its geography). Early 90s, no mobile, no money and no clue. Luckily the other kid knew which station we needed to get to for a CH train and a big issue seller let us beg with him to get travel cards, terrifying for a kid from a small rural village.
I don’t remember hearing anything about it from Cairncross the Child Protection Officer, I think we were told off in class for not paying attention to where we were walking in the group on the trip, by the teacher who should have checked we were there before driving off, (after the museum on the walk to the minibuses we were with the group but didn’t notice it split into two and followed the wrong bus group, the teachers had parked at different locations. We were told to go to the other bus which had already left).
My housemaster smiled and said “ah you’re back” when I finally returned late in the evening, so they knew we were missing, but no apology or asking if we were ok that I can remember, I doubt they told my guardian as they never mentioned it to me. Still have anxiety in big cities.
I'm not trying to act as a type of devil's advocate, but what would you have sued them under? Where in London was the trip?
Re: Elizabeth Cairncross
Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:02 am
by jhopgood
tea wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:04 pm
My housemaster smiled and said “ah you’re back” when I finally returned late in the evening, so they knew we were missing, but no apology or asking if we were ok that I can remember, I doubt they told my guardian as they never mentioned it to me. Still have anxiety in big cities.
Not quite the same, but when I arrived in Cali, Colombia on my first posting, I sat in a well populated park, and before long I was mugged and unconscious. I recovered and after various adventures, got back to my hotel and phoned my boss, whom I had never met.
I explained what had happened, and he asked if I was ok. When I said "yes", he just replied, "Great, see you on Monday".
For some reason, I expected more, but some people are like that.