Unofficial Christ's Hospital Forum

The trouble is, Post war Blue, that those of us who endured the "Tortures " which you list, don''t seem any the worse for it !
I think that when "Discipline" is universal, nobody questions it, and accept it aspart of "Life"
I realise that times have changed, and we are all "Old Fogeys" (Except of course, Hertford Girls !) but even if you consult Old Blues of, say, 20 years ago, I think you will find that they have, in general, fond memories of their time at CH.
(This may, of course, be due to premature onset of Dementia !)
I was there on Old Blues Day, and I only saw happy faces, I don't think that ANY Regime could produce that--- unless it was genuine !

Dear Neil,

I have heard the tales of post war blues talking of how easy we get it today.... and while at CH I heard many unpleasant tales of what took place.... When looking at these periods of history... I can say safely that people HAD not right to complain - The human rights act wasn't even passed until 1998.... There were definitely bigger class devides, and nowadays, the government is much softer... so the people seem to have more rights and take advantage of the system.

CH has also changed - the apparent lack of conservatism when it comes to hierachy and benefits of CH is clearly more obvious - but this is universal in the sense that, if CH was still a place where blues endured "tortures", it would not be the great school it is today.... infact... it would have been shut down!

Yes, for an OB that has had harder times you may feel that the petition seems petty, but there are deeper meanings behind the noted points in the petition....

Smiles or not, people smile under any regime in order not to aggrevate it.... up until the people have had enough.... And then topple the regime!

I hope you agree.... to an extent.... with my points?

regards,
S

Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I would not deny anyone the right to express them --- However --
A majority of Electors put the present Government in power, I didn't --- but we are all stuck with them ! !
I just beg to differ on some of your points ! I suspect that Time colours our view of the past with rose-tinted memories !
As to the present Government -------- Possibly a new Topic ????

NEILL THE NOTORIOUS wrote: As to the present Government -------- Possibly a new Topic ????

What a brilliant idea - a petition to get rid of Gord!

There is one already, on the e-petition site.

Is there? Must pop along Anyone know how many signatures its already got and how many it's going to take to get the job done?

.

Sparticist,

Youc an obviously tell from my tone that I do not support your petition, and have some 'judgements' on your style, however to be a bit more conciliatory...

Yes, for an OB that has had harder times you may feel that the petition seems petty, but there are deeper meanings behind the noted points in the petition....

This is my fundamental objecttion to your cause - it you genuinely think there a issue which go to the heart of the ethos and spirit of Nicholas Ridley and the founders, then fight that cause, and you will get my support - in typical CJ fashion 'I did not get where I am today without the foundation CH gave me' and I would never have got that opportunity if some of the planned fee assessment strategies had happened in the 80's. however bitching and whingeing about 'traditions' which are very recent will not get the whole community of OB's on your side, as it is not relevant to many of us.

Secondly my observation

Well that will not exactly help your cause, there are several Common Room members posting on here. Stooping to personal insult will always lose you your credibility and probably the argument.

is meant as a piece of sound advice for you as you develop your way in the world, but it probably comes across as a bit patronising - respect is hard earned but easily lost, and insuting others is one of the easiest ways to lose it (I refer to several hundred residents of a building in Westminster as proof of my case - notice how the true parliamentarians that people look up to didn't get involved in that sort of behaviour)

Be passionate about your views and dreams, but be true to your goal and don't soften the message with minor distractions.

I debated, whether, or not, to reply ---
I shall, therefore be brief.
We shall have to agree to dis-agree, I am firmly of the belief that the change to some Full Fee-Paying Students is, fundamentally against the founding Principles of Christ's Hospital.
I have already "Made my way" in the World, chiefly, I believe ,to my education at CH.
At the age of 81 ---- I ain't gonna change !

Sorry Neill - I think we do agree!!

I hate the thought that the intake may be partially restricted by the introduction of full fee-paying students, and that as paretal income rises a disproportionate increase in fees ensues. When I started my fees were significnatly less than £100 pa, as my mother was recently divorced and in low paid work. As she rebuilt here career she was moderately successful, and the fee assessment rose commensurately, but at no point did it reach the point some on here have got to where they are considering withdrawing their children. This strikes me as abolutely against the founding principles of the school.




But that has naff all to do with rock concerts and duvet days................

Rock Concerts I recognise, since my "Babies" are 55 and 50 --- but what the Blue Blazes are DUVET DAYS ?---

See previous entries - my term for medically unauthorised bed rest

cstegerlewis wrote:
I do not support your petition, and have some 'judgements' on your style

What exactly are these judgements? Or at least - what is your personal reason for distaste with what I am trying to achieve?

cstegerlewis wrote:

however bitching and whingeing about 'traditions' which are very recent will not get the whole community of OB's on your side, as it is not relevant to many of us.

As to your comment on respect.... I'm pretty sure all parliamentarians for the last 100 years have been rude and disrespectful towards each other and the electorates.... In fact, im sure the "great parliamentarians" George Peele, Gladstone and Disraeli all had smear campaigns against one another... But correct me if I am wrong...

I also feel your implication of me "bitching" is a bit lost to say the least, I am not the one bitching, and nor are my colleagues. These may not be fundamental principles of CH, but they underline a very important message... "something is wrong......"

cstegerlewis wrote:

Be passionate about your views and dreams, but be true to your goal and don't soften the message with minor distractions.

These are NOT my views... these certainly are NOT my DREAMS (the capitals are for emphasis, nothing more, nothing less) What I have written on that petition is something that the current blues are distrssed by.... I am doing this because the last time they tried to fight for themselves, CH and SMT claimed it was "A personal attack on Mr Franklin" - granted, some people did say things that shouldn't have been said - but that was NOT the primary objective behind it.... So when CH closes down and investigates their "Housey peaceful revolution page" and tries to implement punishment upon main contributing members..... I would like you to ask yourself.... Is this NOT a form of Facism? Or, to say the least, regime like activity?? These days we have "Freedom of speach and expression" , therefore, it is wholey against any fundamental right by closing down the site and destroying the hopes of the current blues....

I think that is all I had to cover in that effort of a debate.... But please, keep throwing them at me... I am up for debate to do with the petition if it gets more OB's to sign it....

Regards,
Spartacist

Excellent response!

Firtsly 'Judgement' as in opinion on the appropriateness, not on your person (ie remember not to personalise insults) - If I were trying to do what you are doing, with a few more years experience than I had as a recent Old Blue, I would be going straight to the SMT with it - public petitioning can be akin to lobbying, or even more extreme forms of behaviour - sometimes it is innappropriate for an 'authority' to be seen to bow to any sort of pressure, even though you may well have got changed through private discussion.

Secondly, closing down a website which was possibly/probably held or edited on CH assets is clearly within the rights (human rights) of an entity - if you provide an fund an asset you have some recourse to edit/control what it is used for. If it was managed independently by an external body or agency, then that would be for the courts to decide if it were free speech, or in breach of any law of libel/slander etc. Closing down a website and seeking some 'punishment' against the authors is hardly fascism, it is just enforcing the discipline of rules that probably the parents/guardians of the indivuals had signed up to (and the individuals were probably minors when it happened).

You use the word 'regime' in a perjorative sense as though it is necessarily bad - however it is just a set of rules that have been set and agreed to by the SMT, and should have the full endorsement of the governing body - if not supported by them, as the employer they may well direct the SMT otherwise or remove them. Therefore the target of your ire should perhaps be aimed higher?

However the simple fact remains that the SMT have been appointed, with the governing body well aware of Mr. Franklin's style and manner, which is where this fundamentally comes from. AFAIK they still support and endorse him, and if the parents do so as well it will continue. However it is a (mostly) free country, with freedom of expression and will, and if the consumers of the service do not like it (ie the parents, and to some extent the staff) they will have the freedom to object or remove themselves.

Where we all fundamentally agree is this removal should not be due to hastily, ill concieved plans to increase the parental contribution, to the detriment of the fundamental ethos of the school. I repeat my previous assertion that if you limited the petition to that singularly huge issue you would have my support.

cstegerlewis wrote:

minihobo89 wrote:We the undersigned would like the following changes to be carried out forthwith:

The abolishment of using parent's income as a deciding factor when choosing Deputy Grecian and Second Form new entrants.

Agree if true, but not Mr Franklin's decision - I would like an Governing body comment on this before I support your stance

The reinstatement of Grecians having the choice to march with their respective boarding houses, coupled with the reinstatement house registration at marching.

Seems reasonable

The creation of a truly democratic Pupil Council, free to make decisions on behalf of the pupils and put them forward to the Headmaster directly, without any intervention or veto powers being exercised by staff in the process.

Why?

The abolishment of at least one in-house night.

Just about every night was in house bight in the eighties, count yourself lucky

The abolishment of the plan to build a cafe in the grounds of Christ's Hospital.

Sounds like a good idea to me

The reinstatement of allowing houses to show their verbal support for awards won by the house or individuals in the house.

Don't get it, isn't applause enough?

The reinstatement of the full-length rock concert, with all seniors allowed to participate.

The rock concert was a creation of the 80's, hardly fundamental to the nearly 5 and a half centuries of tradition that went before

The reinstatement of bed-rest.

What on earth is that? - if it is medically recommended OK, otherwise get out of bed you lazy layabouts Yet another thing not invented in the 80's, so hardly goes to the founding belief of the school

The reinstatement of more than one disco a term, and the return to venues such as Big School and Theatre.

Most 'discos' were in boarding houses, or in the grecian's club (I guess a 60's creation) - but the dayrooms have gone now which was the venue for such things.


Overall a valiant but misguided attempt to invoke the spirit of Ridley and the founders, over a bunch of reasonably minor traditions that have less than 20 years history.....strikes me that Mr. Franklin is slightly more disciplpined than the last SMT, my thoughts are 'get over it' and enjoy your time while you can.

I have not signed your petition

I am aware that I have come into this discussion relatively late on and having began reading through the material I particularly feel compelled to respond to this comment made quite a few pages back. I will undoubtedly find more that wish to respond to, but this is the first of its kind that I truly wanted to dispute.

1) You said that the fees were not Franklin's decision. Although the petition is to be heavily ammended, I do not see where in the petition it says that we are trying to overthrow Franklin. I do believe that many of the changes that we are against are related to his power, decisions and the SMT, however, we are not saying anywhere that New Deps paying full fees is Franklin's doing. What I do know, however, is that there is no way my younger brother will be able to go to a school which he would hear me speak so highly of when he was small. He is at a school which he enjoys, but he always wanted to go to CH. If he is academically capable, not to mention strong at sports and art, there is STILL virtually no chance he can go as we cannot foot the fees, even combining my mother and my own income. It will be the same for many underprivaliged, yet capable, children.

2) I presume you agree with the petition point that grecians should have the choice. As a Grecian recently said, there is plenty of time to bond with your house and year. Marching is one of the few times we could catch up with the house and younger ones.

3) CH isn't a democracy. It's a school. Discipline needs to be in place. But neither should it be a regime. At uni we have representatives who put ideas forward and discuss, maturely as adults, how the courses can be improved and generally all aspects of uni life. I think if responsible representatives are selected at CH, the student body can only benefit from having a voice to communicate with the SMT.

4) The abolishment of one in house night. I think that one in house night is more than enough, so depending on how many there currently are, one or more should be abolished. There was the somewhat ridiculous response that in the eighties every night was one. In the eighties, people used to be thrown down the stairs in wardrobes. Does it mean it's right? Children mustn't be stifled. If, for example in the Winter, they have full lessons all day, then active and then tea and then rollcall and prep...isn't that enough time being shut up in doors in the evening and otherwise tied up throughout the day? shouldn't they be allowed out for a short time in the evening to socialise and the like? I just think it's Franklin's way of getting complete control. Two very worthy sources, both of which are much loved long-term servind teachers who have both acted as house tutors or masters both said seperately that all the additional rules are set-up so that everyone is reined in and monitored pretty much all the time.

5) Cafe- to be honest, if it offers the pupils somewhere to be and feel comfortable and socialise I don't see an issue. However, has anyone notices how steadily over time the back ash has virtually vanished? Before it acted as a playground for students, space where they could hang out, skate, bike ride, whatever. I know they can do that elsewhere, but it was the place where everyone could be and as I said, just spend time. First of all, the Lamb housematsers houses took up east back ash. And then when I went to Ch the other day for the memorial, I see the same has happened on West back ash, which think is terrible. So I propose IF they want a cafe, and it'll bring in funds for other things (and maybe be a venue for discos) they don't take up more of the space where children once could play. It was a lovely open space and it's a trevesty it's being eaten up to accomodate the housemasters. (Who had fairly spacious flats with balconies previously.)

6) Children not being allowed to cheer- I'm sorry, it's pathetic. It was lovely to be cheered on when getting awards and one feels a sense of pride. Assembley was never an informal occasion when people could cheer, it just made it more exciting, and to be honest, kept people from falling asleep. I think no cheering takes away team spirit and support. How in anyway did cheering ever harm anyone?

7) The rock-concert may not have gone on in the five centuries before, but was society the same then? There are other forms of entertainment, but everyone has always loved the rock concert since it began. They found a one-off source of fun, one-off in the sense it only happens once year. Why take it away? If the children were out of school they would have enjoyable weekends and be given a little freedom. Why should they be deprived of such a fun activity? Also, people forget that some of the students are highly talented, not only in classical music, but other genres too. why shouldn't they be allowed to showcase this/express it.

Bed-rest. If people are sick they are sick. I believe in a proper diagnosis by a nurse at the health centre or a doctor. If they decree the person ill, depending on the extent of their illness they should be allowed back to house to be cared for by matron, or else stay in the health centre. Matrons should be trained to judge who is ill and who's not. A thermometre is always useful.

9) Discos- as far as Im concerned halloween, xmas, valentines, easter, rock concert and end of term are suffice, plus maybe one or two like the ones we would have in the octagan that peele had put on to raise money for something or other, where we paid a small fee of a pound or two. Perfect for letting your hair down and something to truly look forward to on a Saturday when you're on the mini-bus on your way back from an away match

Finally "enjoy your time when you can." I think, that phrase should be more like, "grin and bare it, remember it was like this in the eighties too and we survived, and life begins after you've served your time in this regimental lifestyle." ( )

I'm out. That really annoyed me. As you can see from the rant.

CRISTINA.