Did anyone know?

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graham
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by graham »

William wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:00 am I disagree with some of Graham’s words,

“A clip round the ear, even a hard one, does not do this. The ear drum is housed within some of the densest bone in the human body, It requires direct, forceful contact. A hard fall can do it, as can very loud music (because of excessive vibration), but it terms of clips 'round the ear, let's not mischaracterize what he must have done - he gave the child hard, direct smack.”

Graham appears to misunderstand the mechanism which can break the eardrum. As he correctly says the internal ear is surrounded by dense bone and so the drum is protected from a direct blow on the exterior of the skull. BUT if by chance the slapping hand is suitably cupped and strikes around the pinna (ie the flapping piece of cartilage outside the skull, which is commonly called ‘the ear’) and traps air, which is then compressed and travels down the external auditory canal (commonly called the ‘earhole’), the resulting air pressure wave can break the ear drum. The external auditory canal is a cul de sac and ends at the moveable ear drum. (Breaking is more likely if the pressure on the other side is low, as can occur when swallowing.) So “a clip round the ear,” CAN break the drum. The air pressure wave breaks the drum. Neither vibrations arriving directly through the surrounding bones, not “direct forceful contact,” (unless of course a long, thin pointed object is shoved deeply into the external auditory canal) do this.
I don't want to hijack the thread with a discussion of ear trauma but this is not quite accurate either, William. I misspoke regarding excessive vibration - the ear drum ruptures with loud sounds as a result of sudden and /or severe pressure changes. But it may indeed also be dislocated or damaged as a result of severe head trauma. A hard blow to the otic region would be sufficient to achieve this. Rapidly rotating the pinna forward would very unlikely to generate a sufficiently large force to generate sufficient pressure change to rupture the ear drum, as pressing quickly on the Tragus would tell you. To generate forces of such a magnitude from an ear clip, you'd be likely to tear the cartilage of the pinna and do significant damage to the external ear. It is far more parsimonious to conclude that impact is responsible in this case.
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graham
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Re: Did anyone know?

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jtaylor wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:01 pm Agree that all of that seems sensible measured approach now.
Back in the day though, the accepted standards were very different - and I seem to recall parents literally signed over parental responsibility to the school, pretty much unconditionally. So more freedom (for good and ill) for the staff....?

J
I think we still had to have parental consent to join the club, right? I'm trying to come up with a list of times I was given alcohol (or was allowed to buy my own) outside of the club and there weren't that many: during house dances on my Deps/Grecians (1 can of beer only!), during the Grecian's ball (it flowed a little more then), during a trip to a comedy club with other leavers from my house (thanks SJOB), and during the Grecian's German study visit. For the most part, those experiences were pretty controlled. But the slope is very slippery, isn't it?
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by loringa »

graham wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:33 am I think we still had to have parental consent to join the club, right? I'm trying to come up with a list of times I was given alcohol (or was allowed to buy my own) outside of the club and there weren't that many: during house dances on my Deps/Grecians (1 can of beer only!), during the Grecian's ball (it flowed a little more then), during a trip to a comedy club with other leavers from my house (thanks SJOB), and during the Grecian's German study visit. For the most part, those experiences were pretty controlled. But the slope is very slippery, isn't it?
In the 70s we were allowed to join the Grecians' Club on the month of our 17th birthday. We were officially limited to 3 half-pints of beer or cider an evening. The club committee at the time, however, was so enormously corrupt that they and their friends drank pretty much what they liked, generally without paying!

Otherwise, we seem to have been allowed to hold 18th birthday parties at which we could serve alcohol and, as a thank-you, my House master once took a group of monitors / Grecians out for a (proper smart) dinner once. Otherwise it was the odd, small glass of wine and the occasional beer in a master's study when in the company of a large group - never, ever on one's own, or when away with the Scouts or Venture Scouts. I got drunk, once, at a friend's birthday party - my own stupid mistake and no member of staff was involved or even aware (at the time at least).

My parents, having a fairly grown-up approach to the subject, would usually include a bottle of cider of a can or two of beer in my tuck at the beginning of term.

Overall, CH seemed to have a fairly sensible and adult approach to drinking in the 70s; smoking, however, was never permitted ever (as far as I am aware) - definitely something for The Lag, Shelley's Wood, the lav ends or Mr Matthews' classroom. I now know that it went on but personally I never saw (or smelt) any evidence whatsoever of drug use (though we were aware that a number of pupils had been expelled for this in the late 60s / early 70s).
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by Otter »

I got tipsy at a teacher's house for a leaving party about a week before the end of my Grecians. The teacher was also retiring. The whole class was invited, as were numerous staff (both teachers and non-teaching staff, spouses, etc.). Nothing untoward whatsoever; I remain in occasional contact with the teacher in question.

In my view, the opinion expressed by some that a drop of alcohol is evil if you are one day under 18, is a direct contributor to the UK having far more problems with alcoholism and binge drinking than most other developed nations.
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Re: Did anyone know?

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Otter wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:11 am In my view, the opinion expressed by some that a drop of alcohol is evil if you are one day under 18, is a direct contributor to the UK having far more problems with alcoholism and binge drinking than most other developed nations.
Spot on!
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by loringa »

Otter wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:11 am In my view, the opinion expressed by some that a drop of alcohol is evil if you are one day under 18, is a direct contributor to the UK having far more problems with alcoholism and binge drinking than most other developed nations.
As a nation we seem to be becoming ever more po-faced about alcohol. Whilst I certainly do not condone excessive underage drinking and most definitely not drink-driving or binge drinking in anyone, I like a drink or three (though that's not always so easy in this part of the world). There is a reason it's known as Dutch courage: sailors about to engage the enemy and soldiers about to go over the top were generally issued with an extra tot to fortify them against the danger they were about to face. Alcohol has a respectable place in the history of our nation, and one I am happy to honour today.

Mind you, our collective and current attitude may be a backlash to the idiocies of the 'lad' culture of the 90s / noughties where people seemed to drink with the express aim of getting drunk and making fools of themselves. Personally, much as I like a drink, I dislike getting drunk and could never see the benefit of doing so deliberately, however often I may inadvertently found (find) myself that way!
Last edited by loringa on Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by sejintenej »

Otter wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:11 am
In my view, the opinion expressed by some that a drop of alcohol is evil if you are one day under 18, is a direct contributor to the UK having far more problems with alcoholism and binge drinking than most other developed nations.
I don't disagree. Unfortunately there seems to be a childish attitude to drink everyone else under the table at any excuse. Having lived elsewhere, with the exception of the Oktoberfest and very rarely due to a licencing situation in Norway I cannot recall seeing drunkenness abroad

Fortunately, but too late, age seems to sober people - I have just spent a week in a closed community of about 30 Brits and Aussies, unlimited free alcohol including shorts available from 11am for 11hours, and I didn't see anyone affected by the alcohol.
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by William »

I too do not wish to prolong this side-topic, which is so much less important than the matter being discussed here, but I’m somewhat hypocritical I suppose. Even so, this will be my last word on the breaking of ear drums. I believe some misunderstanding continues. I agree with Graham’s words,

“Rapidly rotating the pinna forward would very unlikely to generate a sufficiently large force to generate sufficient pressure change to rupture the ear drum.”

But I never said this. I indicated that the increase in air pressure as a pressure wave moves along the ear canal (earhole) towards its blind end (the ear drum) causes the drum to rupture. This can arise from a cupped hand striking the pinna so initiating the pressure wave. Such a rupture is more likely when an adult strikes a child’s head since (1) the relative size of striking hand to pinna is large, so the pinna can easily be fully covered by the hand and (2) a child’s Eustachian tube (associated with a mechanism on the far side of the drum that allows pressure equalization so reducing the likelihood of a pressure wave breaking the drum) is relatively small and more easily blocked with mucus, etc. The pinna need not be torn by a blow which breaks the drum. It is usually simply covered and flattened against the skull. Finally it is well known that boxers who use protective helmets with a doughnut shaped covering around each ear can suffer ear drum breakage (the boxing glove’s action on the ‘doughnut’ can produce an air pressure wave), but if the helmet has an ear pad (not a doughnut), drums are not broken. A site on the internet confirms the latter point.
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by TMF »

Teachers bursting pupils' eardrums seem to make the news outside the UK - and lead to convictions for teachers.

But, no doubt that rest of the world will eventually catch up with the enlightened 'Durrant school' system for house sports discipline...

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 892128.cms
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D58WolILLk
https://www.monitor.co.ug/News/National ... index.html
https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article ... ng-student
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by Pe.A »

TMF wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:27 pm Teachers bursting pupils' eardrums seem to make the news outside the UK - and lead to convictions for teachers.

But, no doubt that rest of the world will eventually catch up with the enlightened 'Durrant school' system for house sports discipline...

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 892128.cms
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D58WolILLk
https://www.monitor.co.ug/News/National ... index.html
https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article ... ng-student
You're trying to compare incidents over 40 years apart. In the UK, corporal punishment was allowed in the 70s. In present day India, over half of the states have already banned it. You cannot compare the two.

Now just let it go...!!
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by loringa »

TMF wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:27 pm Teachers bursting pupils' eardrums seem to make the news outside the UK - and lead to convictions for teachers.

But, no doubt that rest of the world will eventually catch up with the enlightened 'Durrant school' system for house sports discipline...
I don't think anyone, including Mr Durrant himself, is suggesting that slapping / striking a pupil is acceptable in any way. He was, after all, dismissed from Christ's Hospital as a result. I believe this was a suitable punishment, particularly at the time of the offence.

I took a look through the thread on Roger Martin on the reminiscences theme yesterday evening. This convicted child abuser was greatly loved and respected by a large number of his charges. No-one is all good or all bad; some offences are worse than others and can be forgiven in time whilst others perhaps cannot, but the perpetrators may not be wholly evil!

I understand that this is not a view that all will hold and it is clear that a number of people on this forum see things in rather more black and white terms than perhaps I do. I am not, in this instance, thinking of those who are victims of abuse (who are fully entitled to hold whatever views they want - they have earnt that right). There are others, however, who seem to have taken on this issue as some form of crusade.
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by TMF »

Yes indeed, India, Kenya, and Uganda do show great respect to children.
I don't think anyone, including Mr Durrant himself, is suggesting that slapping / striking a pupil is acceptable in any way.
Durrant said that the assault incident was either miscalculated or accidental (viewtopic.php?f=65&t=5274&p=146127#p146145) and expressed a degree of intolerance toward those he was attempting to educate on his views (mentioning special needs education, for example).

However, everyone is entitled to their feelings, tolerant, apologetic, and otherwise. And of course, if you wish to have your children supervised by the esteemed Durrant, you can always send him a PM to inquire about his availability and rates.
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by loringa »

TMF wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:46 pm Yes indeed, India, Kenya, and Uganda do show great respect to children.
Well, that's a view I suppose though I'm not sure it is entirely supported by the facts. Try this from the Times of India:
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 383544.cms
... or this from another Indian source:
https://www.businessinsider.in/law-orde ... 385866.cms

Not sure about Kenya or Uganda either. This is from the University of Nairobi:
http://erepository.uonbi.ac.ke/handle/11295/20719
... and this from UNICEF:
https://kenya.savethechildren.net/news/ ... t-children
... this, admittedly, is sponsored by the Catholic church:
https://werk.co.ke/wp-content/uploads/2 ... report.pdf
... and moving next door:
http://hejnu.ug/child-neglect-rated-highest-in-uganda/
... whilst this from the VOA:
https://www.voanews.com/africa/uganda-s ... hild-abuse

The UK has many issues with child abuse but I certainly wouldn't hold up India, Kenya or Uganda as examples of best practice. This is an important issue but let us not fall in to the trap of thinking it's better elsewhere.
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by TMF »

I certainly wouldn't hold up India, Kenya or Uganda as examples of best practice
Just some of the countries that prosecute teachers who burst pupil's eardrums. I meant no offense to enlightened corporal punishment enthusiasts and apologists.
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by Pe.A »

TMF wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:46 pm Yes indeed, India, Kenya, and Uganda do show great respect to children.
I don't think anyone, including Mr Durrant himself, is suggesting that slapping / striking a pupil is acceptable in any way.
Durrant said that the assault incident was either miscalculated or accidental (viewtopic.php?f=65&t=5274&p=146127#p146145) and expressed a degree of intolerance toward those he was attempting to educate on his views (mentioning special needs education, for example).

However, everyone is entitled to their feelings, tolerant, apologetic, and otherwise. And of course, if you wish to have your children supervised by the esteemed Durrant, you can always send him a PM to inquire about his availability and rates.
All for an incident over 40 years ago - and in which he probably didn't have a cane or slipper to hand.

Jesus wept.
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