Unofficial Christ's Hospital Forum

During my senior years at CH i got a bit drunk in more than one teacher's house

Which teachers?

Like i would say!

So adults giving minors alcohol (like Durrant did) is entirely normal?
If so, why not indicate which teachers did this with you?

TMF wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:30 pm

During my senior years at CH i got a bit drunk in more than one teacher's house

Which teachers?

Like i would say!

So adults giving minors alcohol (like Durrant did) is entirely normal?
If so, why not indicate which teachers did this with you?

I think we need to take a little bit of a step back here and remember the times we were in and the standards that prevailed.

The academic year after I left (1972) the School authorised the opening of the Grecians Club. The thinking being, given that the School were acting in loco parens, that alcohol should be 'demystified' and introduced sensibly. As said I was pre Grecians Club but my housemaster, Ron Lorimer, would invite some of us to have a beer or two whilst watching Match of The Day and there was absolutely no impropriety of any kind.

My late parents were aware and comfortable with the circumstances I have described.

I do not wish to diminish the evidenced evil manipulation, via use of alcohol, of victims by the abusers in any way but we should not read something sinister into every incident of pupils drinking alcohol occasionally with Masters, particularly back in the seventies.

I think the alcohol issue could be complex.
Teachers were/are in-loco-parentis, and it’s perfectly acceptable for a parent to give alcohol to their child in the right way, in order to teach sensible alcohol consumption etc.
Combine that with the Grecian’s Club where you could drink when you turned 17, and the lines were fairly blurry.
I don’t recall alcohol being given to 2nd Form through your UF - only Deps/Grecians I think?

Of course the individual teacher’s motivations aren’t known, but in itself I don’t personally think it was a massive issue on its own.... but potentially could be a contributory factor to grooming or coercion I guess....

TMF wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:30 pm

During my senior years at CH i got a bit drunk in more than one teacher's house

Which teachers?

Like i would say!

So adults giving minors alcohol (like Durrant did) is entirely normal?
If so, why not indicate which teachers did this with you?

1. Why so curious...?

2. I'm not fundamentally opposed to the 16-18 age range being given alcohol. With regards to Durrant, what makes you sure that he gave alcohol to the pupils...?

3. I'm not going to name names simply because a/ it's irrelevant b/ i don't want to start a potential rumour mill.

Nothing wrong with treating Deps and Grecians like adults and in this respect the Grecians Club was a good thing.

Like pubs, it contained the drinking to one area, so easier to manage.

Is the Grecians Club still in existence?

We were allowed to have a pint or three on the Portsmouth - St Malo ferry

However there is a world of difference between a couple of beers whilst watching MOTD and openly getting drunk in a teacher's home, and this seems to have become the accepted norm in the 90s.

I certainly wasn't aware of such practices in my time, no wonder less scrupulous teachers exploited it.

Although ironically it was possible to go into Horsham in full uniform and purchase alcohol as a UF or GE.

1. Why so curious...?
2. I'm not fundamentally opposed to the 16-18 age range being given alcohol. With regards to Durrant, what makes you sure that he gave alcohol to the pupils...?
3. I'm not going to name names simply because a/ it's irrelevant b/ i don't want to start a potential rumour mill.

1. Alcohol had a 'disinhibiting effect' on Webb: https://www.chforum.info/docs/WebbTranscript.pdf
2. Durrant told the jury he had been drinking wine all evening and he and the other pupils were drunk.: https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north- ... ex-2810551
3. You are allowed to feel that way.

TMF wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:32 pm

1. Why so curious...?
2. I'm not fundamentally opposed to the 16-18 age range being given alcohol. With regards to Durrant, what makes you sure that he gave alcohol to the pupils...?
3. I'm not going to name names simply because a/ it's irrelevant b/ i don't want to start a potential rumour mill.

1. Alcohol had a 'disinhibiting effect' on Webb: https://www.chforum.info/docs/WebbTranscript.pdf
2. Durrant told the jury he had been drinking wine all evening and he and the other pupils were drunk.: https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north- ... ex-2810551
3. You are allowed to feel that way.

1. I had a feeling you might mention Webb. But there are differences in that the pupils weren't given alcohol. Besides, i view his using alcohol as a 'mitigating' circumstance as lame as the "they were asleep" excuse, especially considering he used them post 1980 offences. Furthermore, alcohol doesn't seem to have been an issue in other cases.
2. The Durrant newspaper report is unclear what the nature of the Christmas party was, i.e. whether there were other teachers present etc. Besides it would not have been an issue if malicious and spurious complaints had not been filed to the police by horrible little c****.
3. Thanks.

AMP wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:27 pm Nothing wrong with treating Deps and Grecians like adults and in this respect the Grecians Club was a good thing.

Like pubs, it contained the drinking to one area, so easier to manage.

Is the Grecians Club still in existence?

We were allowed to have a pint or three on the Portsmouth - St Malo ferry

However there is a world of difference between a couple of beers whilst watching MOTD and openly getting drunk in a teacher's home, and this seems to have become the accepted norm in the 90s.

I certainly wasn't aware of such practices in my time, no wonder less scrupulous teachers exploited it.

Although ironically it was possible to go into Horsham in full uniform and purchase alcohol as a UF or GE.

I think my phrasing using 'a bit drunk' was wrong. It was more tipsy than drunk. Furthermore i wouldn't describe it as a common occurence in the 90s. I was just lucky enough, i guess. I also seem to remember on at least one occasion stopping off at a pub briefly on the way back from an away rugby match on my Grecians (?)

The St Malo ferry was different - as the drinking age on the Continent was 16+, so as soon as the ferry left Portsmouth the bar was fair game - as was the local bar in Pleneuf.

Maybe I'm misreading things here but there appear to be two sets of arguments that are not in conflict. A light introduction to alcohol - a beer or two watching tv or during a group meal - with 17-18 year olds is deemed to be ok by most, so long as parental consent is obtained. Drinking to the point of being drunk with or while in charge of students is not appropriate. I think we all agree on this. Durrant did the latter (whether with or while in charge of seems uncertain but one or the other occurred).

While we're at it, can we refrain from the "clip 'round the ear" phrasing? I re-read his comments and he perforated the kid's ear drum. A clip round the ear, even a hard one, does not do this. The ear drum is housed within some of the densest bone in the human body, It requires direct, forceful contact. A hard fall can do it, as can very loud music (because of excessive vibration), but it terms of clips 'round the ear, let's not mischaracterize what he must have done - he gave the child hard, direct smack.

Pe.A wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:41 pm
1. I had a feeling you might mention Webb. But there are differences in that the pupils weren't given alcohol. Besides, i view his using alcohol as a 'mitigating' circumstance as lame as the "they were asleep" excuse, especially considering he used them post 1980 offences. Furthermore, alcohol doesn't seem to have been an issue in other cases.

I may have misunderstood this exchange, but giving alcohol to pupils was def an issue with GWD.

Alcohol has been mentioned several times in the grooming of pupils. See for example:
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=5313&start=30#p145608

I disagree with some of Graham’s words,

“A clip round the ear, even a hard one, does not do this. The ear drum is housed within some of the densest bone in the human body, It requires direct, forceful contact. A hard fall can do it, as can very loud music (because of excessive vibration), but it terms of clips 'round the ear, let's not mischaracterize what he must have done - he gave the child hard, direct smack.”

Graham appears to misunderstand the mechanism which can break the eardrum. As he correctly says the internal ear is surrounded by dense bone and so the drum is protected from a direct blow on the exterior of the skull. BUT if by chance the slapping hand is suitably cupped and strikes around the pinna (ie the flapping piece of cartilage outside the skull, which is commonly called ‘the ear’) and traps air, which is then compressed and travels down the external auditory canal (commonly called the ‘earhole’), the resulting air pressure wave can break the ear drum. The external auditory canal is a cul de sac and ends at the moveable ear drum. (Breaking is more likely if the pressure on the other side is low, as can occur when swallowing.) So “a clip round the ear,” CAN break the drum. The air pressure wave breaks the drum. Neither vibrations arriving directly through the surrounding bones, not “direct forceful contact,” (unless of course a long, thin pointed object is shoved deeply into the external auditory canal) do this.

Leeautemps wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:16 am

Pe.A wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:41 pm
1. I had a feeling you might mention Webb. But there are differences in that the pupils weren't given alcohol. Besides, i view his using alcohol as a 'mitigating' circumstance as lame as the "they were asleep" excuse, especially considering he used them post 1980 offences. Furthermore, alcohol doesn't seem to have been an issue in other cases.

I may have misunderstood this exchange, but giving alcohol to pupils was def an issue with GWD.

So were smoked oysters and episodes of Inspector Morse...

jtaylor wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:09 pm I think the alcohol issue could be complex.
Teachers were/are in-loco-parentis, and it’s perfectly acceptable for a parent to give alcohol to their child in the right way, in order to teach sensible alcohol consumption etc.
Combine that with the Grecian’s Club where you could drink when you turned 17, and the lines were fairly blurry.
I don’t recall alcohol being given to 2nd Form through your UF - only Deps/Grecians I think?

I would suggest that in a school environment teachers must be circumspect; some parents might allow the odd glass, others are adamantly against their offspring having alcohol so a teacher has to go with the more "responsible" parental attitude. @@@@
Far worse is the admission here that a person got a bit (or more) tipsy; the adult should have noticed that coming and blocked the last glassful and I wouldn't expect a semi-innocent schoolboy to know better.
It is known that Kit allowed pupils to have a pint - a pint and no more and in company with many other pupils and outside term time and away from
school premises. I don't know if he approached parents on that issue but OTOH he kept it under strict control. I view that as responsible.


@@@@ in my own family I was allowed a sip of the evening gin-based cocktail from the time I went to CH - and the full cocktail glass later after she died. By contrast her sister forbade my cousin accepting a scholarship from Queens because they drink alcohol and are RCs down there..

Agree that all of that seems sensible measured approach now.
Back in the day though, the accepted standards were very different - and I seem to recall parents literally signed over parental responsibility to the school, pretty much unconditionally. So more freedom (for good and ill) for the staff....?

J