Roger Martin - trial

[rockfreak]

Well-liked teachers and sex abuse can often go together. In my era Gordon Pink in Prep B was a much liked and academically respected teacher. He could have his English class in fits of laughter. At the end of my last term in the Prep, Summer 1955, we had a whip round and bought him an inscribed pewter beer mug. He was clearly touched by this gesture. We had set aside the tales of groping that were circulating in the house. What did we know as pre-pubertal youngsters back then? This was a rather shabby old guy who perhaps found it hard to settle into any other form of livelihood. In the end he was sympathetic to our problems if we were really up against it. And of course back then at public schools you tended to keep your problems, emotional or physical, to yourself. As Evelyn Waugh said of his time at school (Lancing College?): "Some masters seemed to like little boys not at all and some too much".
In Coleridge B I felt much the same about AH Buck. Is anyone familiar with Rattigan's play The Browning Version"? Buck was a kind of paedo version of Crocker-Harris. This dedicated, pedagogic classics master has an unhappy marriage, only in this case a hetero marriage. He is feared for his strict academic rigour but respected for it too. In Buck's case it was his appearance. Imagine the Emperor Hirohito but cut off at the knees. He would have had trouble attracting an adult gay lover, especially in those dreadful 1950s days when it was illegal and the police worked to trap gays in public loos. Boys are often more understanding than we give them credit for. It was clear that his little excursions to the dormitories at night couldn't go on but perhaps subconsciously we understood his predicament. Very sad for all concerned.

[J.R.]

An estimated 5,000 pupils have been abused at Christ's Hospital:
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=5209&p=142368&#p142368

It looks like the great educational benefits spoken of in "The Charge" were not received by TMF ... or the moderator who thanked him for his comment.

I cannot speak for TMF but as far as ' The Charge' is concerned, age old words.

[TMF]

An estimated 5,000 pupils have been abused at Christ's Hospital:
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=5209&p=142368&#p142368

It looks like the great educational benefits spoken of in "The Charge" were not received by TMF ... or the moderator who thanked him for his comment.

True - I (at least) received no educational benefits. I also note that the essence of the comment are unchallenged (just a jab on a different topic).

There are likely to have been thousands of children abused at the school

-The school did not protect pupils from abuse and bullying.
-The school covered up and facilitated abuse.
-So abuse and bullying increased.
-Cover continues.
-So it is likely that abuse continues.

'Sudden staff departures' are correlated with abuse activity. Whether 'sudden staff departures' have been researched and reported in detail to the police remains unclear to this day.

See, e.g. this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=5209&&start=150#p142941

...And I think that we can anticipate further shill activity attempting to obfuscate these points. (Too many pensions and too much priggish pomposity to suspect otherwise).

[loringa]

An estimated 5,000 pupils have been abused at Christ's Hospital:
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=5209&p=142368&#p142368

That is not at all what the thread to which you refer says. In full, it says this which is not the same thing:

'First, how can they know how many were abused? Let us say that the period involved is 1950-2010 and the throughput was 100 per year. That gives a cohort of 50 times 100 equals 5,000 (less those that have died, of course). How could they (or the police) locate and question all of those? If it is left to effected Old Blues to come forward, will these all identify themselves simultaneously? Some may not wish to embarrass their families, some may regard it as simply 'water-under-the-bridge' (i.e., something which happened, but it was a long time ago); some may wish to keep quiet until they see which way the wind is blowing; in some cases the Old Blue may know that the perpetrator is dead. Finally, some may not have heard of the situation and not come forward initially and then decide to do so. In other words, the school/police will never know the full figure until the last one has died in about 2100.'

Whilst the proof of sexual abuse is clear the numbers are not, and posting comments like this is not helpful in any way. Whilst you personally may not feel you received a good education at Christ's Hospital, most of us did and remain grateful to the school for the benefits that we, at least, received.

[TMF]

That link is indeed an estimated 5,000 abused pupils. David was giving an estimate to understand how many pupils could have been abused. Thank you for providing the text.

The current count is 11 convictions. How many years were these abusers at their 'work'? (and returning to the Norfolk Broads (viewtopic.php?f=65&t=5135&p=140181&#p140181), returning to reunions (with companions: viewtopic.php?f=65&t=5204&p=141927&#p141927), etc. How many children did they abuse in total?

Then consider the numerous sudden departures.

Then make your own estimate for the number of abused children over the years.

Whilst you personally may not feel you received a good education at Christ's Hospital, most of us did and remain grateful to the school for the benefits that we, at least, received.

Good - I am pleased for you.

What might also be of interest to those concerned about the good name of the school is the fact that because of the ongoing cover - children may continue to be abused. If not at Christ's Hospital - then at other schools or locales that abusers moved on to.

[Avon]

I cannot speak for TMF but as far as ' The Charge' is concerned, age old words.

Meaningless words. Paradoxically perhaps the inherent assumption that is the Charge puts people off?

Not half as bad as ‘Royal, Religious and Ancient’ though. None of that helped protect young and defenceless people, did it?

[DazedandConfused]

I understood the calculation of 5,000 pupils to be the total number to pass through CH in that time period. To say that this is the number of children abused assumes a 100% rate of pupil abuse, which isn’t realistic. Yes, there were potentially 5,000 children put at risk of abuse due to the (recently) convicted sex offenders amongst the staff and the inaction of the SLT and I am certain that there are more victims than have already come forwards, but not 5,000 pupils that have been abused at CH.

[TMF]

It is interesting that there is so much concern over an estimate of the number of children abused at the school.

There are 11 convictions (currently). Did these abusers abuse one person each? There is evidence here that Husband had several liaison, boys from Barnes B complained to Newsome about Roger Martin's activities, etc.

Abusers are limited only by access to children, and CH provided almost unlimited access to children.

If you want to generate a conservative number, multiply the number of convictions by an estimate for the number of victims for each abuser.

If you want to generate an estimate for the staff being covered for - extend your calculations to include sudden or 'spurious' disappearance staff.

If you want to obey the charge - and provide opportunities and benefits for children - this is best achieved by not trying to minimize and obfuscate.

[DazedandConfused]

My intention is in no way to minimise. Unfortunately we will never know a true number as not every victim will want to come forward and many will no longer be with us. Some may not even consider themselves true victims or their experiences worth reporting to the police as they, or others, have minimised or excused what happened. My feeling is that we don’t know the true number of perpetrators either. Perpetrators may also have passed away, or moved abroad beyond the reach of the police.

[richardb]

One of the difficulties is that Webb and Burr in the 70s appear to have been lone wolves while Dobbie, Husband etc seem to have been part of a ring.

Webb, for example, may have interfered with every boy in the dormitory, while Dobbie and Co seem to have targeted specific individuals.

Factor in that the school made limited attempts to contact potential victims. I was on Webb's watch for three years but was not contacted, even though I was receiving communications from the school.

It is an impossible task trying to fathom out how many victims there were and guestimates are liable to mislead.

[DazedandConfused]

Richard- do you believe there will be more arrests?

[richardb]

There are two that could happen. They were at the cycling shorts parties.

Otherwise I would have thought the investigation has probably run its course.

The publicity means that anyone likely to come forward probably has.

[DazedandConfused]

I keep coming back to the cycling shorts parties and I’m surprised there haven’t been arrests yet.

[richardb]

I keep coming back to the cycling shorts parties and I’m surprised there haven’t been arrests yet.

Me too.

[TMF]

I would be interested to know what the 'sudden departure count' is.

Here are links to some departures that have not led to convictions:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=317&p=57144&#p57144

viewtopic.php?f=65&t=5140&p=140943&#p140943

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5003&p=141405&#p141405

...and Howard has said 'there were others'.

The sudden departure count is something that the school can easily ascertain from their records. E.g. I expect departure dates will be recorded carefully for pension contribution purposes.