Unofficial Christ's Hospital Forum

Pe.A wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:23 pmAre you sure about that? How far back in time do you want to take that?

It'd be about two years ago since I last remember hearing a variation of that particular phrase from someone senior in a top tier place, I was at a conference and drinking with senior academics from a range of institutes, Oxbridge included. People in academia love to complain and gossip, same as any other job, they also love a drink.
Grades are important, but personal reputation carries weight, that's why you have kids doing a range of extracurriculars for the UCAS applications. Can't begin to count the number of times I've been told over the years that "everyone's got grades, they want to know why you're different". Being different cuts both ways. To most people, getting expelled from school is associated with doing something so bad that it went beyond detention or suspension. When you can't explain it in person or put it in the context of attending a place like CH, people usually assume the worst.

Pe.A wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:08 pm

Katharine wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:31 am

Pe.A wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:10 pm
Hmmm...i have to slightly disagree. I mean, in real terms there's not that much difference (if any) between moving someone on (for whatever reason) and an expulsion. Trying to integrate 200 odd girls in a school of 600 adolescent boys back in 1985 would have been a nightmare scenario in certain respects...

Try to imagine it from the girls point of view. I left Hertford in 65 so twenty years earlier but we were protected from males of the species, we didn't have a single male teacher. The chaplain was a local vicar not really an appointment to the school, there was no way you could have spoken to him at any time, even if you wanted to. I don't think I spoke to a man on school premises, apart from visiting fathers and brothers or the doctor, in my time at the school.

That really is quite surreal - it sort of reminds me of the Castle Anthrax scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail ; p

True, but you need to read the messages from ex Hertford girls/ladies. Katharine hints at the conditions there - others have been more explicit. I can only imagine how they would have felt suddenly being side by side with boys (instead of not being allowed to see them at 100 yards range!!!!) without the minute by minute detailed overseers watching for the slightest mis-thought.

scrub wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:03 pm Can't begin to count the number of times I've been told over the years that "everyone's got grades, they want to know why you're different".

Also true in employment. Because you didn't get an A, B, C, D, ....grade in GCE O level I knew of companies who would not even interview you. They were too thick to understand that grades came in with GCSE - no GCSEs - no interview.

Crazy, stupid, moronic, but factual. Just like the county council which will not consider allowing you to have contact with children because you have an adoption certificate and not a birth certificate.

Stopped? Yep, unless school policy has changed you both got your marching orders. As for allowed? Well, as said above, it's a grey area. Unless you're advocating a totalitarian regime, best option IMO is ensure there is open access to information and education on sexual health, consent, and sexuality in general that isn't from the "God says NO and you should feel dirty and ashamed for even thinking of it" handbook.

Not sure about the law here but surely if an over 18 has intercourse with an under 18 (and they are not married) is that illegal at law? Perhaps considered to be rape? (Perhaps that is my US learning)

If so then the school is required to act firmly.

I must say that I count myself incredibly fortunate not to have been at CH after it went mixed. Even as things were, I found it extremely hard to focus on schoolwork and always put off doing any sort of prep for as long as I realistically could. If girls had been thrown into the equation, I'd have ground to a halt altogether and have got absolutely nothing whatever done.

Probably we've all met people who attended state day-schools and who basically gave up going in to school as soon as they started having regular sex with their girlfriends/boyfriends, because it made them feel so very grown-up that school by comparison appeared thoroughly babyish, so they left with no qualifications rather than go on being schoolkids. Probably that would've happened to me at a mixed CH. Or I'd simply have been asked to leave for not having the right priorities.

sejintenej wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:57 pm

Stopped? Yep, unless school policy has changed you both got your marching orders. As for allowed? Well, as said above, it's a grey area. Unless you're advocating a totalitarian regime, best option IMO is ensure there is open access to information and education on sexual health, consent, and sexuality in general that isn't from the "God says NO and you should feel dirty and ashamed for even thinking of it" handbook.

Not sure about the law here but surely if an over 18 has intercourse with an under 18 (and they are not married) is that illegal at law? Perhaps considered to be rape? (Perhaps that is my US learning)

If so then the school is required to act firmly.

The phrase "Romeo and Juliet law" comes to mind, but a) I'm not a law talking guy, and b) I've never been in a position to worry about it, so I don't know much about it.
My guess would be that regardless of legislation, context and the attitude of the parent(s) or whoever is in loco parentis would determine how things were handled in a legal sense.

sejintenej wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:57 pm

Stopped? Yep, unless school policy has changed you both got your marching orders. As for allowed? Well, as said above, it's a grey area. Unless you're advocating a totalitarian regime, best option IMO is ensure there is open access to information and education on sexual health, consent, and sexuality in general that isn't from the "God says NO and you should feel dirty and ashamed for even thinking of it" handbook.

Not sure about the law here but surely if an over 18 has intercourse with an under 18 (and they are not married) is that illegal at law? Perhaps considered to be rape? (Perhaps that is my US learning)

If so then the school is required to act firmly.

The legal age for consensual sex in th U.K. is 16. (Richard will confirm, I'm sure.)

HOWEVER....... School consensual sex is another matter.

Take the British armed forces. Consensual sex is NOT allowed. The Royal Navy is particularly hot on this for obvious reasons with both men and women serving on ships.

sejintenej wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:57 pm

Stopped? Yep, unless school policy has changed you both got your marching orders. As for allowed? Well, as said above, it's a grey area. Unless you're advocating a totalitarian regime, best option IMO is ensure there is open access to information and education on sexual health, consent, and sexuality in general that isn't from the "God says NO and you should feel dirty and ashamed for even thinking of it" handbook.

Not sure about the law here but surely if an over 18 has intercourse with an under 18 (and they are not married) is that illegal at law? Perhaps considered to be rape? (Perhaps that is my US learning)

If so then the school is required to act firmly.

The age of consent in the uk is 16 .
Outside of CH, a 17/18 year old going out with a 14 year old is probably not that uncommon. Uf - Grecian relationships were quite common when I was there - I did have a male pal who on his LE went out with a Grecian girl...

sejintenej wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:44 pm Also true in employment. Because you didn't get an A, B, C, D, ....grade in GCE O level I knew of companies who would not even interview you. They were too thick to understand that grades came in with GCSE - no GCSEs - no interview.

Umm - not strictly true. From 1975 GCE O Levels were graded A to E and, from their introduction in 1965, CSEs from Grade 1 (equivalent to Grade C at O Level) to Grade 5. Performance below that required for a Grade E (O Level) or Grade 5 (CSE) was considered to be unclassified or ungraded and did not appear of the certificate.

Immediately prior to this between 1963 and 1974, most exam boards used numbered grades 1-9, of which grade 1 was the highest and grade 9 the lowest, but these grades were not issued to students. Results which met the Ordinary standard (grades 1-6) were recorded as Pass.

From 1951 to 1962 students were recorded as having reached the Ordinary standard in subjects in which they were judged to have been successful. The required Pass mark was generally 45/100.

(Information above checked on Pearson qualifications and AQA websites).

GCSEs are now graded from 9 (highest) to 1 (lowest) with Grades 9 and 8 broadly equating to the former A* grade, Grade 7 to an A and downwards to Grade 1 equating broadly to Grade G. Interestingly, the exam boards consider a Grade 4 to be equivalent to a (lower) Grade C and thus to what is generally considered the 'Pass' level, however, Ofsted continues to record the numbers of students achieving 5 GCSEs at Grade 9 to 5 rather than Grade 9 to 4 as their measurement of success, although this statistic is no longer the principal measurement of effectiveness as previously.

As to the lower grades (below those considered to be a 'Pass') I am unsure of their value to employers. I could only find two who would consider the level of a Grade D in maths to be an acceptable level of achievement to progress: a hairdressing apprenticeship offered in Gloucestershire, and the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers where a Grade D was approximately the level required for their less technical trades.

J.R. wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:11 pm Take the British armed forces. Consensual sex is NOT allowed. The Royal Navy is particularly hot on this for obvious reasons with both men and women serving on ships.

Again, not strictly true. One thing that the Armed Forces, the Royal Navy as much as the others, recognise is that it is impossible to legislate on the feelings individuals have for one another. What one needs to do is set very clear boundaries as to what is permitted in the unit (ie on board the ship (or base, battalion, squadron etc) and what is not.

On the one hand, this applies to the physical nature of the relationship and what is and is not acceptable and I would think this would transfer across directly to what is and is not acceptable in school. On the other, the nature of the professional relationship between the individuals concerned is a bigger issue. I can think of no situation where a romantic relationship between individuals within the chain of command would be tolerated (just like between pupil and teacher) in which case the sensible case in the Armed Forces would be for the protagonists to declare it and move one or other of them to another unit. I can, however, envisage a situation where two individuals from, for example, different departments or sub-units could maintain a relationship whilst serving in the same unit provided they were both careful to step outside the boundaries. Indeed, I can think of a number of examples where this has happened with no detriment to discipline.

There will be others on this forum who may disagree with me I am sure.

loringa wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:20 am

sejintenej wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:44 pm Also true in employment. Because you didn't get an A, B, C, D, ....grade in GCE O level I knew of companies who would not even interview you. They were too thick to understand that grades came in with GCSE - no GCSEs - no interview.

Umm - not strictly true. From 1975 GCE O Levels were graded A to E and, from their introduction in 1965, CSEs from Grade 1 (equivalent to Grade C at O Level) to Grade 5. Performance below that required for a Grade E (O Level) or Grade 5 (CSE) was considered to be unclassified or ungraded and did not appear of the certificate.

Immediately prior to this between 1963 and 1974, most exam boards used numbered grades 1-9, of which grade 1 was the highest and grade 9 the lowest, but these grades were not issued to students. Results which met the Ordinary standard (grades 1-6) were recorded as Pass.

From 1951 to 1962 students were recorded as having reached the Ordinary standard in subjects in which they were judged to have been successful. The required Pass mark was generally 45/100.

(Information above checked on Pearson qualifications and AQA websites).

GCSEs are now graded from 9 (highest) to 1 (lowest) with Grades 9 and 8 broadly equating to the former A* grade, Grade 7 to an A and downwards to Grade 1 equating broadly to Grade G. Interestingly, the exam boards consider a Grade 4 to be equivalent to a (lower) Grade C and thus to what is generally considered the 'Pass' level, however, Ofsted continues to record the numbers of students achieving 5 GCSEs at Grade 9 to 5 rather than Grade 9 to 4 as their measurement of success, although this statistic is no longer the principal measurement of effectiveness as previously.

As to the lower grades (below those considered to be a 'Pass') I am unsure of their value to employers. I could only find two who would consider the level of a Grade D in maths to be an acceptable level of achievement to progress: a hairdressing apprenticeship offered in Gloucestershire, and the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers where a Grade D was approximately the level required for their less technical trades.

In terms of what I actually received directly from the Examination Board the bolded section is correct. However I was advised of my GCE 'O' level grades when I returned to CH. This was during 1969 and 1970.

sejintenej wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:57 pm

Stopped? Yep, unless school policy has changed you both got your marching orders. As for allowed? Well, as said above, it's a grey area. Unless you're advocating a totalitarian regime, best option IMO is ensure there is open access to information and education on sexual health, consent, and sexuality in general that isn't from the "God says NO and you should feel dirty and ashamed for even thinking of it" handbook.

Not sure about the law here but surely if an over 18 has intercourse with an under 18 (and they are not married) is that illegal at law? Perhaps considered to be rape? (Perhaps that is my US learning)

If so then the school is required to act firmly.

It entirely depends on what can be proven. Being in bed together doesn't prove anything in the eyes of criminal law - but falls foul of CH law.

sejintenej wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:36 pm

Pe.A wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:08 pm

Katharine wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:31 am

Try to imagine it from the girls point of view. I left Hertford in 65 so twenty years earlier but we were protected from males of the species, we didn't have a single male teacher. The chaplain was a local vicar not really an appointment to the school, there was no way you could have spoken to him at any time, even if you wanted to. I don't think I spoke to a man on school premises, apart from visiting fathers and brothers or the doctor, in my time at the school.

That really is quite surreal - it sort of reminds me of the Castle Anthrax scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail ; p

True, but you need to read the messages from ex Hertford girls/ladies. Katharine hints at the conditions there - others have been more explicit. I can only imagine how they would have felt suddenly being side by side with boys (instead of not being allowed to see them at 100 yards range!!!!) without the minute by minute detailed overseers watching for the slightest mis-thought.

Apologies, i know. Couldn't help the levity...

scrub wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:03 pm

Pe.A wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:23 pmAre you sure about that? How far back in time do you want to take that?

It'd be about two years ago since I last remember hearing a variation of that particular phrase from someone senior in a top tier place, I was at a conference and drinking with senior academics from a range of institutes, Oxbridge included. People in academia love to complain and gossip, same as any other job, they also love a drink.
Grades are important, but personal reputation carries weight, that's why you have kids doing a range of extracurriculars for the UCAS applications. Can't begin to count the number of times I've been told over the years that "everyone's got grades, they want to know why you're different". Being different cuts both ways. To most people, getting expelled from school is associated with doing something so bad that it went beyond detention or suspension. When you can't explain it in person or put it in the context of attending a place like CH, people usually assume the worst.

I must admit i am a little in the dark as to how a university would figure things out - do they get records/references from the school etc? Would those records/references state the reason for the expulsion etc? (In which case it would surely take a hard puritanical heart to judge someone dismissed for being caught with their trousers down/dress up in a discriminatory way?) Or would they figure things out from the disjointed dates between attendance and dates the grades were awarded...?

Pe.A wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:14 amI must admit i am a little in the dark as to how a university would figure things out - do they get records/references from the school etc? Would those records/references state the reason for the expulsion etc? (In which case it would surely take a hard puritanical heart to judge someone dismissed for being caught with their trousers down/dress up in a discriminatory way?) Or would they figure things out from the disjointed dates between attendance and dates the grades were awarded...?

I've always wondered this.

Is there such thing as a "school record" that gets sent to the uni along with the UCAS application? I also wonder if there would now be GDPR implications if so.

A DBS criminal record certificate is one thing, where it's an official and standardised legal document that can be requested in certain defined situations. But I'm not aware of the same being true of a "school record", if there is such a thing. Maybe I'm way off, but the only formal school record I'm aware of is my GSCE and A-Level certificates, musical instrument grade certificates, etc. I doubt there is a school record à la enhanced DBS check containing every late homework submission, drill, detention, yellow card, and so on?