Who would you Shop?

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jhopgood
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Who would you Shop?

Post by jhopgood »

In conversations with my son, we got on to the subject of child abuse and how to reduce these incidents. I mentioned that growing up, I had not come across such abuse and put it down to parental education, and in some circumstances, school education. I suggested that better education of children would help.
He suggested that it was a case of “whistle blowing”, and that if enough people advised authorities at an early stage, and ensured that there was follow up, then the incidences would be reduced.
It has always been my contention that other than the perpetrator and victim of a crime, someone else always knows.
When asked what he would do if he saw a shoplifter, his answer was to warn the person, but only advise the authorities if his warning was not heeded. The same applied to family violence. In the case of child abuse, he would immediately advise the authorities without warning the perpetrator.
Since all three cases are breaking the law, and two are against persons, where would you draw the line?
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Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by graham »

In my position as a university professor in the USA, I’m a mandated reporter. That means that any incident of emotional, physical or sexual abuse involving a student, postdoctoral researcher or staff member that I hear about, whether rumor or statement of fact, or reported by the victim or some concerned third party, must be reported to officials at the University who then are legally obligated to initiate an investigation (though not necessarily
to contact the authorities). I believe I can (and should) be reprimanded to failing to do so. I’d extend that obligation to report to my life as a private citizen too. Shoplifting would not warrant such actions at work and would not do so at home either.
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Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by robert totterdell »

Please have a look at Mandate Now. It may answer some of the questions. Good points from a victim of sexual abuse at CH. Thanks

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Re: Who would you Shop?

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jhopgood wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:09 am In conversations with my son, we got on to the subject of child abuse and how to reduce these incidents. I mentioned that growing up, I had not come across such abuse and put it down to parental education, and in some circumstances, school education. I suggested that better education of children would help.
He suggested that it was a case of “whistle blowing”, and that if enough people advised authorities at an early stage, and ensured that there was follow up, then the incidences would be reduced.
It has always been my contention that other than the perpetrator and victim of a crime, someone else always knows.

Since all three cases are breaking the law, and two are against persons, where would you draw the line?
Sorry John but......
In my case the question of parental or school education simply did not exist. Nada, nothing, zilch. (Don't mention Matthews - not having been chosen for his lectures I have no idea what he said).

Your contention that "someone else always knows". Sorry again but not always true.
--An older boy approached me with intent in the junior loos whose doors did not have any security devices. He was "persuaded" to f*** off. There were no witnesses and if I had reported the incident I would have been slippered and also needed the infirmary again.
A retired GP had permission to take me out one Saturday (as happens). In his car he drove into a secluded field close to CH and indicated his obvious intentions. A CH uniform was not easy to gain access to if the wearer feels otherwise and he failed. If I had reported the invitation: 1) a kid against a highly qualified doctor with no witness? easy decision. 2) He was a highly respected friend and near neighbour of my mother's employers - she would have been sacked, no recommendation, moneyless and homeless and I would have been out of CH that day almost clothesless.

Sorry J but in these cases the aggressor chose his victim and circumstances well. Even if the victim does report against an adult then the adult has the upper hand. OK so now investigation might be started if there were multiple complaints but the bias would still exist.
There was a competition between two housemasters and two boys as to which boy's ass received the most attacks. Abuse or justifiable punishment? The adult has the stronger case automatically
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Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by Otter »

graham wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:58 am In my position as a university professor in the USA, I’m a mandated reporter. That means that any incident of emotional, physical or sexual abuse involving a student, postdoctoral researcher or staff member that I hear about, whether rumor or statement of fact, or reported by the victim or some concerned third party, must be reported to officials at the University who then are legally obligated to initiate an investigation (though not necessarily
to contact the authorities). I believe I can (and should) be reprimanded to failing to do so. I’d extend that obligation to report to my life as a private citizen too. Shoplifting would not warrant such actions at work and would not do so at home either.
I agree with every word except "rumour". By the time the 5th or 8th person overhears something, the story may have changed considerably, even resulting in the wrong assailant or victim being named or other key facts being totally incorrect. It's a tough call, as any hint or suspicion of such abuse should be investigated, but on the other hand, false rumours destroy innocent lives.

I don't know how the system works in the US, but in the UK, if you are in a job that requires an enhanced DBS check, then being the subject of such a rumour that reaches so far as a police investigation (even without any further action taken) will make you instantly unemployable in your chosen profession for the rest of your life. In addition to containing factual information from your police record, the enhanced DBS check has a free-text section where the chief constable can enter any information that they deem "relevant", at their entire discretion and with no guidelines or limitations. In practice, this means ALL information, gossip, rumour or suspicion that they have about you, regardless of whether it is unfounded or you are indisputably factually innocent. And of course even the tiniest of mentions in this field on the DBS check will cause your CV to end up in the bin of any potential employer (and sacked by your current employer next time you have a DBS check renewal), who will not touch you with a bargepole for legal/reputational fears.
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Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by robert totterdell »

Very true Otter. Durrant is the perfect example and any investigation is on a persons DBS if it has gone to the police. The point of Mandate Now is that a second, third or 8th party is not accepted as a valid witness. Only a party who has specific concerns and evidence is required to contact the police.

In Burr's case it took 4 victims to come forward to lead to prosecution. With Martin, one count was dropped due to lack of evidence and they were concerned with actual evidence. In fairness Martin could have got away with it. Of course by then he did not need a CV.

It is extremely complex and the evidence from a CRB/DBS check is based on a broad sledge hammer approach and probably needs to be revised.
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Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by rockfreak »

There's still the freemasonry among colleagues that must exist. I don't mean literally the blindfold and the funny handshake but the easy camaraderie that must inevitably exist among any group of professionals who have perhaps become friends over a period of time spent working together. Would you rat on a mate? Suppose you yourself have repressed paedophile desires? And if you don't, how can the authorities prove that you knew and refrained from telling, apart from getting inside your head? How do you get inside anyone's head? Freud? Jung? Timothy Leary? They've all had a go. I took LSD in the 1960s in an effort to get inside my head and the results were frightening and spectacular by degrees.

I was in the houses of Pink and Buck in the 1950s and they were allowed to indulge their fiddling activities for some time without any masters or staff raising the alarm. I can't believe these people didn't have their suspicions. As I've posted on other threads, in each case it was a boy who blew the whistle and complained to his mother who went to the authorities.
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Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by graham »

Otter wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:12 pm
graham wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:58 am In my position as a university professor in the USA, I’m a mandated reporter. That means that any incident of emotional, physical or sexual abuse involving a student, postdoctoral researcher or staff member that I hear about, whether rumor or statement of fact, or reported by the victim or some concerned third party, must be reported to officials at the University who then are legally obligated to initiate an investigation (though not necessarily
to contact the authorities). I believe I can (and should) be reprimanded to failing to do so. I’d extend that obligation to report to my life as a private citizen too. Shoplifting would not warrant such actions at work and would not do so at home either.
I agree with every word except "rumour". By the time the 5th or 8th person overhears something, the story may have changed considerably, even resulting in the wrong assailant or victim being named or other key facts being totally incorrect. It's a tough call, as any hint or suspicion of such abuse should be investigated, but on the other hand, false rumours destroy innocent lives.

I don't know how the system works in the US, but in the UK, if you are in a job that requires an enhanced DBS check, then being the subject of such a rumour that reaches so far as a police investigation (even without any further action taken) will make you instantly unemployable in your chosen profession for the rest of your life. In addition to containing factual information from your police record, the enhanced DBS check has a free-text section where the chief constable can enter any information that they deem "relevant", at their entire discretion and with no guidelines or limitations. In practice, this means ALL information, gossip, rumour or suspicion that they have about you, regardless of whether it is unfounded or you are indisputably factually innocent. And of course even the tiniest of mentions in this field on the DBS check will cause your CV to end up in the bin of any potential employer (and sacked by your current employer next time you have a DBS check renewal), who will not touch you with a bargepole for legal/reputational fears.
Yes, I should clarify that reporting in this case would not be to the police but to a person employed by the University who specifically oversees policies relevant to a branch of federal law concerned with sex discrimination in educational law (known as title 9). They may chose to ignore it or follow up on it, and following up can only go as far as those involved or with first hand knowledge are willing to take it. Universities do not pursue internal investigations unless there is strong reason to and so unsubstantiated rumors are unlikely to ever make their way out to future employers. One reason why the reporting of rumors may still be useful, though, is because sexual harassment / assault cases can, as we know, be difficult to prove and having documentation of previous accusations, even if unsubstantiated at the time, can provide useful background to a potential future case and even lead to previous victims being relocated and invited to testify. The standards of proof that a private company or organization may require to come to disciplinary decisions may also be different from those that the legal system uses.

Of course, our system does not always work as it should and too many cases of harassment and assault go un-investigated or prosecuted. In general terms, my point was that mandated reporting is a very sensible policy. I'm not sure I completely agree with Robert (though perhaps I misunderstand his point) that a party with second hand knowledge should not be required to contact the police/institutional authorities but that a person with first hand knowledge always should. If the person with first hand knowledge of an incident is a child, for example, requiring them to be a mandated reporter places them in a difficult position. Of course, if a child wishes to report an incident, they are free to. But then telling a house-parent at CH that they are not a mandated reporter if a child in their boarding house tells them that a friend confided in them that they were abused by a parent or teacher seems to be giving the adult in the position of responsibility a pass to continue what has essentially been going on since the school was founded.

I think mandated reporting is best required of those in a position of responsibility. As a mandated reporter here, I'd report any case, whether first or eighth-hand, to the relevant office at my institution as required and allow them to investigate, and I'd absolutely report a case I had first hand knowledge of to the police as well. I'm not sure how I feel about requiring this of students though.
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Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by Pe.A »

rockfreak wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 8:45 pm I took LSD in the 1960s in an effort to get inside my head and the results were frightening and spectacular by degrees.
Now that i do want to hear about! Another thread, maybe...
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Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by LHA »

Who was Pink? Not sure that name has featured on here before

Thanks
rockfreak wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 8:45 pm There's still the freemasonry among colleagues that must exist. I don't mean literally the blindfold and the funny handshake but the easy camaraderie that must inevitably exist among any group of professionals who have perhaps become friends over a period of time spent working together. Would you rat on a mate? Suppose you yourself have repressed paedophile desires? And if you don't, how can the authorities prove that you knew and refrained from telling, apart from getting inside your head? How do you get inside anyone's head? Freud? Jung? Timothy Leary? They've all had a go. I took LSD in the 1960s in an effort to get inside my head and the results were frightening and spectacular by degrees.

I was in the houses of Pink and Buck in the 1950s and they were allowed to indulge their fiddling activities for some time without any masters or staff raising the alarm. I can't believe these people didn't have their suspicions. As I've posted on other threads, in each case it was a boy who blew the whistle and complained to his mother who went to the authorities.
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Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by Foureyes »

During my time PINK was the senior housemaster of Prep B. He was certainly there in 1948-49 but I had no interest in Prep after I went to Lamb B so don't know how long he remained.
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Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by rockfreak »

Gordon W Pink was my housemaster in Prep B in the 1950s. I have actually posted my knowledge and remembrances of him on another thread and if you want to press the Search window and type in Pink you will get a variety of Pinks come up, all highlighted in, er, pink. Some may refer to the aforementioned housemaster and some perhaps in a reference to an avant-garde house matron of the time who had got her hairdresser to give her a pink streak. Although I think this would have been unlikely given my remembrances of the 50s. Someone might have been described as being "in the pink". Rev Cochrane perhaps in a reference to his complexion.

Anyway, I digress. Throughout my time in Prep B Pink was known as a fiddler. Trying to slide his hands up boys' shorts. I've since learnt from an Old Blue who was confided in by another Prep B lad that Pink had once unbuttoned his own trousers (no zips then guys) and invited this lad to toss him off. Am I allowed to use language like this on the site or will people faint and call for the smelling salts? Loringa has already accused me of scaring the prim and proper boarding school girls off the site. Back onto the pages of a Barbara Cartland novel perhaps. Of course at that age you don't (or back then anyway didn't) really have a vocabulary for it. He was well liked in many respects but perhaps seen as a rather dishevelled old guy with rude habits. Unworldly people of the time (such as my dear mother) would probably said that he was lovely man who hadn't found the right woman yet to take care of him. Goes with the boarding school territory. Just try and keep your flies buttoned up and make light of it. So Pink continued fiddling until a boy (of my own year) blew the whistle)
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Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by sejintenej »

Otter wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:12 pm
I don't know how the system works in the US, but in the UK, if you are in a job that requires an enhanced DBS check, then being the subject of such a rumour that reaches so far as a police investigation (even without any further action taken) will make you instantly unemployable in your chosen profession for the rest of your life. In addition to containing factual information from your police record, the enhanced DBS check has a free-text section where the chief constable can enter any information that they deem "relevant", at their entire discretion and with no guidelines or limitations. In practice, this means ALL information, gossip, rumour or suspicion that they have about you, regardless of whether it is unfounded or you are indisputably factually innocent. And of course even the tiniest of mentions in this field on the DBS check will cause your CV to end up in the bin of any potential employer (and sacked by your current employer next time you have a DBS check renewal), who will not touch you with a bargepole for legal/reputational fears.
Around here, in at least the educational field, even having an adoption certificate instead of a birth certificate has the same effect ; just f*** off
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Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by robert totterdell »

Rockfreak, ever seen 'The History Boys'? 'Pink' has actually come up in my research and is one of the reasons that I have been able to follow sexual abuse at CH from 1949 to 2019(20).

Of course, there are distinctions between types of sexual abuse. I was 'fiddled' with but then suffered far more substantial activities. John Peel the radio DJ talks about this in his, what would become an, Autobiography.

It is one thing to be fiddled with, another to be 'jerked off' and another to be penetrated. The courts make the decision on the severity of the offence and, hopefully, sentence accordingly - that being since the Jeremy Thorpe case.
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Re: Who would you Shop?

Post by graham »

robert totterdell wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:11 pmPink' has actually come up in my research and is one of the reasons that I have been able to follow sexual abuse at CH from 1949 to 2019(20).
Robert, does this date correspond to the range of time you’ve looked at or the last case that you know of?
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