Bursaries Shmursaries

Anything that doesn't fit anywhere else, and is NON CH related - chat about the weather, or anything else that takes your fancy.

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
rockfreak
Grecian
Posts: 972
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:31 pm
Real Name: David Redshaw
Location: Saltdean, East Sussex

Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by rockfreak »

The charitable aspect of the private schools (ISC schools as they're fashionably known) comes under the microscope in Robert Verkaik's well-researched book Posh Boys. He finds that in spite of the protestations of the private sector that they're taking in more supported places (in sync with their historic brief) this simply isn't true. In total, only one percent are on completely fee-free places. This is slightly different at CH of course but as we've seen even they are now taking in 24% fee payers to balance the books and pay for the fabulous facilities and long list of dedicated arts and sports coaches who wouldn't have been there in my day.

What also caught my eye in this book are the arcane bursaries that still hang on after all this time. At Winchester (perhaps the oldest of them) some pupils benefit from a £2 million bursary for aspiring golfers. How many 9-year-olds have managed to convince the school governing body of their unlikely ability to get a hole in one (Hello Finbarr!)? And equally intriguing is the Lathallan private school in Scotland where scholarships are available for children interested in bagpipes and marching drums. Visualise if you will a youngster confronting a panel of stern-looking lairds while trying to wheeze out a rough hewn version of Donald Where's Yer Troosers?


We know about Barnes Wallis and the Royal Mathematical School, but can CH match any of these other schools for Bizarre Bursaries?
Foureyes
Grecian
Posts: 926
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:26 am
Real Name: David
Location: England

Re: Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by Foureyes »

There are numerous 'odd' bursaries at CH, mainly associated with the City of London. One that isn't is the Oliver Whitby entry which is limited to two at a time from the Chichester area. This dates back to a bluecoat school in the Chichester area which became too expensive to run (I think in the 1940s) so the remaining funds were transferred to CH to maintain two places. They wear a special plate and the first of them was called Archer in Lamb B.
David :shock:
sejintenej
Button Grecian
Posts: 4092
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:19 pm
Real Name: David Brown ColA '52-'61
Location: Essex

Re: Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by sejintenej »

rockfreak wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:42 pm
What also caught my eye in this book are the arcane bursaries that still hang on after all this time. At Winchester (perhaps the oldest of them) some pupils benefit from a £2 million bursary for aspiring golfers. How many 9-year-olds have managed to convince the school governing body of their unlikely ability to get a hole in one (Hello Finbarr!)? And equally intriguing is the Lathallan private school in Scotland where scholarships are available for children interested in bagpipes and marching drums.
I simply don't know but have you checked that thee school bursaries are for 9 year olds and not 13 year (or more) olds? - perhaps sixth formers?
AFAIR one Scottish school supplied the local mountain rescue team so some recompense perhaps?
We know about Barnes Wallis and the Royal Mathematical School, but can CH match any of these other schools for Bizarre Bursaries?
My understanding is that now those are for the children of deceased forces parents rather than future sextant users????
What happens if a politician drowns in a river? That is pollution.
What happens if all of them drown? That is solution!!!
rockfreak
Grecian
Posts: 972
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:31 pm
Real Name: David Redshaw
Location: Saltdean, East Sussex

Re: Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by rockfreak »

As a climber myself (having climbed in hostile winter conditions in the Northern Corries of Cairngorm) I don't quite understand what on earth a bunch of schoolboys could contribute to a mountain rescue team who must by definition already be very experienced climbers skilled in all the safety and navigational disciplines, along with the medics required. Is this some stuff that has been posted in the past by head beak Simon to vibe up his old school? Gordonstoun is miles to the north of Aviemore where, I seem to remember, the rescue team for this part of the world is stationed.
sejintenej
Button Grecian
Posts: 4092
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:19 pm
Real Name: David Brown ColA '52-'61
Location: Essex

Re: Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by sejintenej »

rockfreak wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:39 pm I don't quite understand what on earth a bunch of schoolboys could contribute to a mountain rescue team who must by definition already be very experienced climbers skilled in all the safety and navigational disciplines, along with the medics required.
A heck of a lot!!!! a) intimate knowledge of the area through years in the local mountains b) acknowledgement of their skills in the mountains c) training with the team and we are talking about the 1950s and 1960's when things were less militarised, there was no RAF help and no money.

You will be aware that Dr Scott gave classes in first aid up to and including all types of situations from fractures to even childbirth whilst the same people were given lessons in searching and also handling injured people in very difficult circumstances. I am aware of one CH pupil who had been out on mountain rescue searches whilst at CH and a member of a foreign mountain search and rescue team both of whom went through that training.

By contrast the RNLI seems to have gone in the reverse direction. When I was young every one of us handled boats daily but wanted to be part of the lifeboat crew . It was the professional fishermen who got the places (understandably and probably rightly - Eddie Distin, cockswain, was a perfectionist). Now they had to search round and rope in a slightly unwilling hairdresser with no experience to make up the numbers!!!
What happens if a politician drowns in a river? That is pollution.
What happens if all of them drown? That is solution!!!
Foureyes
Grecian
Posts: 926
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:26 am
Real Name: David
Location: England

Re: Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by Foureyes »

"We know about Barnes Wallis and the Royal Mathematical School, but can CH match any of these other schools for Bizarre Bursaries?"

First, there are no bursaries associated with the Royal Mathematical School. There were at one time, but it stopped sometime in the middle of the Nineteenth century. Since then,it has simply been a means for children of Servicemen and Women in the Royal Navy to obtain a place - i.e, short-circuiting the usual governor's presentation.

Second, Barnes Wallis gave all the money he received for all his wartime inventions (not just the bouncing bombs) to initiate the RAF Foundation for the children of RAF personnel. This does have money associated with it and almost 200 children have benefitted. I personally do NOT (repeat NOT) regard that as bizarre.

David :shock:
sejintenej
Button Grecian
Posts: 4092
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:19 pm
Real Name: David Brown ColA '52-'61
Location: Essex

Re: Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by sejintenej »

Foureyes wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:10 pm "We know about Barnes Wallis and the Royal Mathematical School, but can CH match any of these other schools for Bizarre Bursaries?"
Second, Barnes Wallis gave all the money he received for all his wartime inventions (not just the bouncing bombs) to initiate the RAF Foundation for the children of RAF personnel. This does have money associated with it and almost 200 children have benefitted. I personally do NOT (repeat NOT) regard that as bizarre.
Define bizarre.
I think it is the Webb presentations which are based in Newbury, mention has been made of those from Chichester. I think the Webb presentations were also the result of a bluecoat school closing. I beleive that the Corporation of the City of London controls some bursaries for CH - people in the past entrusted the Corporation for that purpose and there is a City Guild also involved..What is the connection with the H.A.C in the City?

What about the absolute multitude of presentations which are not made public? I suspect that these covered 50% of boys in my time. These latter were presentations bought by the donors allowing two pupils to be at CH during the donor's lifetime. There was/is a rule that presentations could not be bought for relatives so they were charitable in the sense of the word. I know that Comerford and I benefited eventually from a fraud (the CH Office gave me chapter and verse) but I suggest that the majority were honourably given as benefiting some kid, probably unknown until he or she was linked to the donor. Were these bizarre?
What happens if a politician drowns in a river? That is pollution.
What happens if all of them drown? That is solution!!!
Foureyes
Grecian
Posts: 926
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:26 am
Real Name: David
Location: England

Re: Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by Foureyes »

" I think it is the Webb presentations which are based in Newbury..."

I think that you may be mistaken and that what you are really referring to is the West's Gift which covers the Reading area and, for reasons I have never understood, Twickenham. . It has been going since the 17th century. It is an extraordinarily generous scheme, has seen many hundreds through CH, and could never be described as bizarre.

Also in your para 2, you are muddled. What you are referring to is the governor's presentations. In outline, each governor pays into a fund (I think ca £20K) as a result of which he/she can 'present' two children to the Foundation. Parents have to apply to the governor and there may well be face-to-face meetings. The child still has to pass the entrance exam/interview. You are correct in saying that it is a stated requirement that the presentee must not be related to the governor and that it is not unknown for that line to be crossed. I also believe that you are wrong - or, perhaps, outdated - to claim that the governor has the right to maintain two children at the school during his/her lifetime. I think that has changed and that the governor is now entitled to present two children only, and that when the second one leaves the governor must then pay up all over again.

David :o
rockfreak
Grecian
Posts: 972
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:31 pm
Real Name: David Redshaw
Location: Saltdean, East Sussex

Re: Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by rockfreak »

Sorry, I wasn't actually suggesting that Barnes Wallis's bursaries or gifts were bizarre. I put it rather badly. I was suggesting that bursaries for golf-playing and bagpipe-blowing youngsters were bizarre. Does anyone get in to CH for getting a hole in one? I think we should be told!
sejintenej
Button Grecian
Posts: 4092
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:19 pm
Real Name: David Brown ColA '52-'61
Location: Essex

Re: Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by sejintenej »

Foureyes wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:11 pm What you are referring to is the governor's presentations. In outline, each governor pays into a fund (I think ca £20K) as a result of which he/she can 'present' two children to the Foundation. Parents have to apply to the governor and there may well be face-to-face meetings. The child still has to pass the entrance exam/interview. You are correct in saying that it is a stated requirement that the presentee must not be related to the governor and that it is not unknown for that line to be crossed. I also believe that you are wrong - or, perhaps, outdated - to claim that the governor has the right to maintain two children at the school during his/her lifetime. I think that has changed and that the governor is now entitled to present two children only, and that when the second one leaves the governor must then pay up all over again.
Very possibly. My (and Comerford's) cost £5000 and I suspect they were bought in the 30's if not before. I never met nor knew the name of "my" governor until the Office told me long after her death. From what they told me I have worked out how she was "found" and where the money came from.
Even so, in today's world £20K is extremely cheap for two pupils, each for up to 8 years. Also the entry exam was nothing - simply if you were healthy enough at 9 years old to survive. Even then there was fierce competition just to get in.

I am glad that the descriptive "bizarre" has been better defined.
What happens if a politician drowns in a river? That is pollution.
What happens if all of them drown? That is solution!!!
Foureyes
Grecian
Posts: 926
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:26 am
Real Name: David
Location: England

Re: Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by Foureyes »

"I never met nor knew the name of "my" governor until the Office told me long after her death. From what they told me I have worked out how she was "found" and where the money came from."

I was 'presented' by the RMS (father in RN) so cannot speak from personal experience of the governor/presentee relationship. However, I had several friends whose governors used to take a keen interest in their progress, visit them from time to time, and even help out in an emergency. I used to feel quite envious, particularly when my parents decided to split up and it could have been helpful to have someone independent to talk to. However, I hasten to add that my Housemaster, Mr TE Archbold, was splendid.

I must also make it clear that my figure of £20k was a guesstimate and could be well out-of-date.

"Also the entry exam was nothing." Maybe so, with the benefit of hindsight, but I well remember the trek from Devon to London, the exam (for which I had had no preparation), and the interview, which was bl--- frightening for a 9-year old. I can see Flecker's bald head to this day. It was rather like that famous Civil War painting, with a panel of grown-ups facing a lonely child and asking 'When did you last see your father?

To end on a lighter note, Flecker is reputed to have asked one young applicant at the interview whether he helped his mother with the dishes. "Of course, sir," came the indignant reply, "every day." Some time later Flecker was talking to said Mum and asked whether little J--- helped with the dishes. She was overcome with amazement. "Him? J---? The dishes? Never in a month of Sundays!" Happily, 'little J' was accepted, which suggests that he had some talents other than dishwashing.

David
sejintenej
Button Grecian
Posts: 4092
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:19 pm
Real Name: David Brown ColA '52-'61
Location: Essex

!Q

Post by sejintenej »

Foureyes wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:40 pm "I never met nor knew the name of "my" governor until the Office told me long after her death. From what they told me I have worked out how she was "found" and where the money came from."

I was 'presented' by the RMS (father in RN) so cannot speak from personal experience of the governor/presentee relationship. However, I had several friends whose governors used to take a keen interest in their progress, visit them from time to time, and even help out in an emergency. I used to feel quite envious, particularly when my parents decided to split up and it could have been helpful to have someone independent to talk to. However, I hasten to add that my Housemaster, Mr TE Archbold, was splendid.
Because of the source of the funds (my conclusion) the Office admitted that they never knew the address of my Governor but went through
her sister.
I was in class when my mother died (my father died probably of war related injuries) making me an orphan. I was called into Kit's office, informed and asked if I wanted to be released from the rugger game that afternoon! After I returned to school Corks and the Chain both offered their services should I need them. Not needed - see below.
"Also the entry exam was nothing." Maybe so, with the benefit of hindsight, but I well remember the trek from Devon to London, the exam (for which I had had no preparation), and the interview, which was bl--- frightening for a 9-year old. I can see Flecker's bald head to this day. It was rather like that famous Civil War painting, with a panel of grown-ups facing a lonely child and asking 'When did you last see your father?
I also came up from the wildest wilds of Devon in a terrifying noisy smelly machine but did have preparation; I had created an essay about Grace Darling who took a small boat out to a wrecked ship off the Northumberland coast. It was never asked for after all that preparation. I don't remember anything of that meeting.
To end on a lighter note, Flecker is reputed to have asked one young applicant at the interview whether he helped his mother with the dishes. "Of course, sir," came the indignant reply, "every day." Some time later Flecker was talking to said Mum and asked whether little J--- helped with the dishes. She was overcome with amazement. "Him? J---? The dishes? Never in a month of Sundays!" Happily, 'little J' was accepted, which suggests that he had some talents other than dishwashing.
ROFL I doubt if he asked me that. I could truthfully have said that I took the morning teas up, dried dishes (and once broke a kitchen glass which caused mayhem!), shelled peas and beans, picked fruit after school until dark.... the typical life under stairs. In consequence I hardly knew my mother so when she died - so what? Kit wouldn't understand!
In fact I was then taken "upstairs" - a very different life and got sent on short courses on things I was expected to know about - oysters was one, brandies another! And of course cocktails at 7.30 before dinner in trousers, shirt and tie plus smart jacket. That first evening I was wearing a CH tie (the one with the stripes) and the boss wore an apparently identical one - RNVR! Every day held a surprise.
All sorts of unusual situations like when I presented my fiancee. At dinner, for a while, the boss was talking in plat deutsch, she in schoolgirl Afrikaans, and me in Norwegian - we all understood each other! He was fluent in at least three languages than I know of and knew enough in several more.It was the boss who encouraged me to do all sorts of odd things - I learned to drive at about 10 years old and even towed cars off the beach when they got caught in the sand. (One Roller chauffeur was insulted to be offered a tow by a kid; the incoming tide ......) .The boss was the person who got me a berth on a Danish navy square rigger - Flecker nixed that! One heck of an upbringing.
What happens if a politician drowns in a river? That is pollution.
What happens if all of them drown? That is solution!!!
Post Reply