World War II

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

Off Topic ---or not -- it is a fascinating subject --

Being an ex-Para, myself, I have met quite a few who were there at Arnhem.
Their view --- almost unanimous-- was that it was a total "Cock-up"
Poor intelligence, about the disposition and strength of the German forces in the area, insufficient Troops to achieve the objectives --- etc.etc. !

The Boy-friend (Later) of my ex-Mother-in-law, chose not to re-cross the river, at the appointed place, which was being heavily attacked, but wandered downstream --- and swam across.
He survived !

[Foureyes]

"[i]their view --- almost unanimous-- was that it was a total "Cock-up."Poor intelligence, about the disposition and strength of the German forces in the area, insufficient Troops to achieve the objectives --- etc.etc. !"[/i] Most battles are cock-ups -it's just that the side that makes fewer than the other, wins! Back to the theme. Another major problem at Arnhem was communications, as many of the radio links, particularly at the higher level, simply did not work. Quite why this should have been so has been a matter of dispute ever since (I speak having served in Royal Signals for many years)

Foureyes , do you know much about Operation Market Garden? Very complicated subject. I don't know how many Old Blues took part in the battle, but I do know that four Old Blues died there. Three were pilots in the Glider Pilot Regiment: Captain Bernard Cumming, Captain Francis Neale and Captain Arthur Oxenford, all of whom were wounded/died in the ground fighting rather than in the air. The fourth was Captain Brian Brownscombe, GM, of the Royal Army Medical Corps. He was one of the doctors at a British hospital which the Germans, quite properly, left operating after the British had capitulated. Several days later, a Waffen-SS corporal came up to the hospital, had a drink and a cigarette with some off-duty doctors, and departed. Several hours later, he returned, pulled out a pistol and shot Brian Brownscombe in the head. Nobody else saw the incident but the Waffen-SS corporal never denied doing it. On the other hand, he never produced any explanation, either. And before anyone pans the Germans, he was a Dutchman.

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

When doing my Para Training at Upper Heyford in 1948 (!!!) -- I was invited, in the Mess, one night, to take a trip in a Horsa Glider.

I had never been more terrified in my life !
We took off, towed by a powered Aircraft, and somewher South of Oxford the Tow was released.
A silence fell, broken only by the hiss of air passing the rigging, and a lovely view of Oxford was enjoyable, since I, as an "OSSIFER" wa allowed up in the Cockpit.

Arriving over the Airfield at Upper Heyford, the Pilot pointed the nose of the Glider at the centre of the Runway and DIVED at it !!!!

I thought he had gone mad --- but since I could not fly, I hung on and waited for Death !

At what seemed the last moment, he pulled back the Stick and landed with a series of bumps -- in a short distance.

Later, in the Mess --- after a few reatorative drinks -- it was explained to me, that that was how the Pilots were trained to land ---- think of Jungle clearings and makeshift runways --!!

Despite this ---- it marked me for Life -- and I have never been in a Glider since !!
Parachutes are far more reliable !!

[kerrensimmonds]

Maybe not quite the right thread, but I have just finished reading Agent ZigZag, by Ben Macintyre. The 'true' story of a British double agent in WW2. Kept me on the edge of my seat. Anyone else read it, or heard of Eddie Chapman?

[dinahcat]

Perhaps we need a WW2 thread -maybe the mods will move this and start one. The reason I am interested in Arnhem is that my father was 19 on the 11th of September just a few days before he parachuted into the area.He never spoke much about it as I imagine it was too traumatic but he did say one or two things to me when I was very young and to my brother before my father died and thay had had a falling out.He said that they were being shot at as they fell out of the planes and everywhere he saw heads and legs and arms falling about him. When he hit the ground the chaos was terrible. There had been some mistake with the landing site and some other mistakes with the kit. They all seemed to have different bits of kit. I don't know whether they lost things on the way dowwn or if the kit had been sent separately but in any event no one seemed to have the complete set of stuff. Someone had a gun but no ammo , someone else had a shovel and no rations and so on. He found two other paras and they had some kind of kit between them. They made a dug out and got in it but it was hit by a grenade. My father and one of the others saw that the third man was down so the picked him up , one on each arm and began to climb out but saw his liver fall out and had to leave him in the dug out.

I have always wondered who they were and sadly my father never said any more about it.I seem to remember that he had written some of it down but I am not sure about it.

He died six years ago and when he was ill and needed something which my mother couldn't afford she approached the British Legion Poppy Appeal. The refused to help as he owned his own house and had a small pension. Clearly jumping out of a plane into hell aged 19 isn't sufficient qualification for assistance when you are needy.I don't think it was about the money that he he needed as in the event that wasn't really important , it was about them saying what he did wasn't enough to be recognised. I think my mother felt that part of his life was really important to the world and he just wanted the British Legion to say they cared . Which clearly they didn't.

My father went on parachute jumps well into his 70s with the Arnhem Vets and often stayed wuth a Dutch family who treated him like a long lost relative. I hope this was some comfort to him when his own people turned ther backs on him.

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

Dinahcat ---

I was very saddened, to read your story, about your Father, and also very cross !

The British Legion has, in many ways, changed for the worse !

I resigned, when they decided to CLOSE the unit Home, which was looking after the Disabled Ex-Servicemen from ALL the wars since 1918.
They have also decided to abolish the differentiation (?) between Ex-Servicemen and "Civilian" Members.
No longer are there Members and Accociate Members (Many of whom attend for the cheaper Beer !) and the Present Chairman of the local Branch, has never been associated with any form of the Services.

The whole point of the formation of the Legion, was the support of Ex Servicemen, NOT the Banner-carring marching, the Albert Hall entertaining Spectacle, the Shouted commands at failing elderly Members, attempting to shuffle, out of step, in the annual March to the Church Service ---------

I'll stop , before I blow a fuse !!!!!

[J.R.]

Here you go, folks !

As requested a WW II thread.

If anyone wants specific posts from the 'Bluecoat/Market Garden' thread moved here, let the Moderators know.

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

As far as I am concerned -- what you will.

I was particularly moved by Dinahcat's piece about her Father, and the refusal of the British Legion, to help -- GRRRR !

I have moved some posts here from the 'Operation Bluecoat' thread in the CH Section, as suggested.

[englishangel]

http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/can-we-help

[englishangel]

For some reason some of this had wandered off to Coleridge Photos, so you will have to excuse if it is out of order.

[J.R.]

For some reason some of this had wandered off to Coleridge Photos, so you will have to excuse if it is out of order.

I wondered why the Coleridge Photo's logo came up mafter I transfered the posts !

I definitely didn't try to post them there !

[englishangel]

It was only Neill's and my last posts that had gone, very odd.

[LongGone]

When doing my Para Training at Upper Heyford in 1948 (!!!) -- I was invited, in the Mess, one night, to take a trip in a Horsa Glider.

I had never been more terrified in my life !
We took off, towed by a powered Aircraft, and somewher South of Oxford the Tow was released.
A silence fell, broken only by the hiss of air passing the rigging, and a lovely view of Oxford was enjoyable, since I, as an "OSSIFER" wa allowed up in the Cockpit.

Arriving over the Airfield at Upper Heyford, the Pilot pointed the nose of the Glider at the centre of the Runway and DIVED at it !!!!

I thought he had gone mad --- but since I could not fly, I hung on and waited for Death !

At what seemed the last moment, he pulled back the Stick and landed with a series of bumps -- in a short distance.

Later, in the Mess --- after a few reatorative drinks -- it was explained to me, that that was how the Pilots were trained to land ---- think of Jungle clearings and makeshift runways --!!

Despite this ---- it marked me for Life -- and I have never been in a Glider since !!
Parachutes are far more reliable !!

Traveling in a Huey with no doors and no seat belts had a similar effect on me

[J.R.]

When doing my Para Training at Upper Heyford in 1948 (!!!) -- I was invited, in the Mess, one night, to take a trip in a Horsa Glider.

I had never been more terrified in my life !
We took off, towed by a powered Aircraft, and somewher South of Oxford the Tow was released.
A silence fell, broken only by the hiss of air passing the rigging, and a lovely view of Oxford was enjoyable, since I, as an "OSSIFER" wa allowed up in the Cockpit.

Arriving over the Airfield at Upper Heyford, the Pilot pointed the nose of the Glider at the centre of the Runway and DIVED at it !!!!

I thought he had gone mad --- but since I could not fly, I hung on and waited for Death !

At what seemed the last moment, he pulled back the Stick and landed with a series of bumps -- in a short distance.

Later, in the Mess --- after a few reatorative drinks -- it was explained to me, that that was how the Pilots were trained to land ---- think of Jungle clearings and makeshift runways --!!

Despite this ---- it marked me for Life -- and I have never been in a Glider since !!
Parachutes are far more reliable !!

Travelling in a Huey with no doors and no seat belts had a similar effect on me

........ as does five or six pints of Irish stout followed by a good chicken vindaloo !!!!

[englishangel]

:mutley: