Submissive wives

[Angela Woodford]

It came about because, in the Jewish tradition women were in a separate part of the Synagoug, from the men --- and were inclined to chatter a bit (Sorry --- but true !) about more important things than the dissertation on the Talmud.

And your references for this statement are....?

Isn't horrid old St Paul a Roman citizen, and a newly enlightened Christian? Why should he be discriminating against those chattering Jewish women (tsk, tsk)?

Think again NEILL.

[Fjgrogan]

Another afterthought ............. Neil, when TBA defers to your view do you think that she does so because it is the good Christian wifely thing to do, or is it just that she knows you would be impossible to live with otherwise?

[anniexf]

It used to be said that patriotism was the last resort of the scoundrel. These days, looking at all the religious scumbags there are worldwide, I suggest it's theology.

[Fjgrogan]

Slightly off topic, but given Annie's comment on theology .......... I have just been proofreading a dissertation for an MA, and keep coming across the term 'post-Christendom'. Does anyone know what this means? I am familiar with 'post-modernism' (well at least I have heard of it!), but this seems to be a new bit of theological jargon which has crept in while I wasn't looking! I find the idea slightly alarming!

[englishangel]

My offspring know about the hat thing (no idea where they have got it from) and always take headgear off indoors, daughter does it too if she is wearing jeans but obviously not of she is being a ladeeee.

[J.R.]

I'm not even going to get involved in this thread at this point.

[jhopgood]

My offspring know about the hat thing (no idea where they have got it from) and always take headgear off indoors, daughter does it too if she is wearing jeans but obviously not of she is being a ladeeee.

Just for info, from Wikipedia.

Headgear etiquette
Urarina shaman, 1988

In the Western culture derived from Christian tradition, removing one's headgear is a sign of respect, making oneself more open, humble or vulnerable, much like bowing or kneeling. This is as if to say, "I acknowledge that you are more powerful than I am, I make myself vulnerable to show I pose no threat to you and respect you." Men's hats are removed in Church, and not removing them is usually frowned upon. Women, however, are required to wear a hat to cover the head in some churches based on 1 Corinthians 11:5.

In the Jewish tradition, the converse idea equally shows respect for the superior authority of God. Wearing a kippah or yarmulke means the wearer is acknowledging the vast gulf of power, wisdom, and authority that separates God from mankind. It is a sign of humility to wear a yarmulke. There is a common phrase that explains this, saying that "there's always something above you" if you're wearing a yarmulke, helping you remember you're human and God is infinite. A Talmudic quote speaks of a righteous man who would "not walk (six feet) with an uncovered head, the (spirit of God) is always above him". Jews also may wear a fur hat or a black hat with a brim.

In Islamic etiquette, wearing headgear is perfectly permissible while saying prayers at a mosque, see taqiyah (cap) for further information. [2].

In the military, there are specific rules about when and where to wear a hat (also known as a 'cover' in America). Hats are generally worn outdoors only, at sea as well as on land; however, personnel carrying firearms typically also wear their hats indoors. Removing one's hat is also a form of salute. Many schools also have this rule due to the fact that many younger men tend to wear baseball caps and this being in relations to gangs depending on the side in which the hat is worn.

As a guideline, a man should remove his hat to show respect for the dead, when a national anthem is played or in the presence of royalty, in a church or courtroom, and during other solemn occasions, when meeting someone, and indoors while in the presence of a lady. A woman may continue wearing her hat, unless she is wearing what is considered a uni-sex hat, such as a baseball cap, when she should remove her hat as well. Women usually do not take off their hats in these situations because they may be carefully pinned to their hair, but only take off their hats in their own homes.

Finally, the hat can be raised (briefly removed and replaced, with either hand), or "tipped" (touched or tilted forward) as a greeting.

[englishangel]

My lot are all hat mad (I DO know where they got that from) and have a variety from baseball caps through flat caps to fedorahs, trilbies and panamas, with several uniform caps thrown in.

Daughter has fur hats, felt hats, cloches and fascinators. For those who don't know, those little flowery, feathery efforts attached to a hairband or comb as worn to summer weddings

[Fjgrogan]

OK girls, should we be regaling the lads with the ins and outs of hat-wearing at Hertford, a problem that never applied at Horsham?

That aside, am I right in thinking that an orthodox Jewish woman is expected only to reveal her hair to her husband, and will therefore wear a wig to cover her own hair? that must get awfully uncomfortable on a hot summer day!

[englishangel]

They even cover their heads in labour in case a male doctor comes in, and on the Sabbath are provided with a little tinkly bell as they are not allowed to use the electric bell push.

[Kim2s70-77]

They even cover their heads in labour in case a male doctor comes in, and on the Sabbath are provided with a little tinkly bell as they are not allowed to use the electric bell push.

Ummmmmm........... if hair is not to be seen by the male Doctor, how do they get around the pubic hair issue???? Just wondering!

[englishangel]

It's covering the head, not hair.

[Mid A 15]

OK I've clambered to the top board of the swimming pool and now is the time to be brave, take a deep breath and jump in!

I think there is a need to look at the CONTEXT of this sermon which was family break up. Statistically it appears that women instigate three quarters of divorces:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/70238 ... tched.html

and the "submit" comments were made in relation to that. Furthermore the interpretation of "submit" appears not to be that of common parlance according to the Mail link higher up the thread:

......"The source added: ‘People misunderstand the word “submit”. In this context it means saying how can I be most beneficial in this relationship as a helper. To submit does not make you an inferior being."......

This whole thing has undoubtedly been a PR disaster but in my view one should bear in mind that in 21st Century politically correct Britain Christians and fat people are the only people allowed to be "bashed." Hence the media will gleefully accentuate the negative aspect rather than set the full context. In context it is arguable that what was said is not so unreasonable after all if one accepts the premise that divorce can have an adverse effect on families.

Awaits

[Fjgrogan]

H'm 'Christians and fat people' - I guess I lose out on both counts!! Seriously though, in terms of taking a statement out of context, this all reminds me of the time when one of the Beatles said that they were more popular than Jesus Christ.

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

It came about because, in the Jewish tradition women were in a separate part of the Synagoug, from the men --- and were inclined to chatter a bit (Sorry --- but true !) about more important things than the dissertation on the Talmud.

And your references for this statement are....?

Isn't horrid old St Paul a Roman citizen, and a newly enlightened Christian? Why should he be discriminating against those chattering Jewish women (tsk, tsk)?

Think again NEILL.

Jesus, Paul, and all of the Apostles were Pharasitc Jews, (Believing in an Afterlife) brought up in, and observing, traditional Jewish Teaching and Customs.--- When Jesus preached in the Synagouge -- the Girls would have ben separate.
The term "Christians" originated in Antioch, and the early "Christians" were not at all keen on admitting Gentiles, to what was, a small Jewish sect ----- Paul had quite a lot of diffuculty in convincing Peter that the Gospel was for everyone !
Paul was, indeed, a Roman citizen, and claimed that right of being tried in Rome --- didn't do him a lot of good !! -

This all seems to be a bit off topic on "Submissive women", ----- those on this Forum don't seem to be so !