It's time for Sillett, Cairncross and Poulton to comment.

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Re: It's time for Sillett, Cairncross and Poulton to comment.

Post by richardb »

For my part I do not accept that there have been any cheap shots and would be interested to know who they have been taken at. Without knowing who is being referred to, it is difficult to answer the allegation.

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Re: It's time for Sillett, Cairncross and Poulton to comment.

Post by CodFlabAndMuck »

richardb wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:50 am
The part of Baker’s letter (which is dated 24th February 1984) that relates to Webb reads as follows:
I write to inform you that, with regret, I have received and accepted the resignation of Mr. P J H Webb. Mr Webb has taught at Christ’s Hospital for eighteen years, and has made a considerable contribution to the School, for much of the time as Assistant Housemaster, and more recently as Housemaster. I will not need to remind you of the many and varied changes which have been, and are, taking place at Horsham in preparation for September 1985, or to emphasise the pressures which these changes have added to those of the very busy life here. Mr Webb has felt these pressures mere than most, not least as a result of the relocation of his House in the summer of last year. These pressures have produced strains which he has found it impossible to sustain, and which have affected his behaviour. This, and the medical advice he has sought, have led to his resignation. To assist his recovery he will be taking a complete break from teaching, and will be receiving professional advice and help. It is my hope that he will achieve a full recovery.

I don’t know what others make of it but to me it is: (i) completely untrue; and (ii) a cover up.

I have been through the Daily Express archives online and I cannot find the article about Mr. Chips, which we have previously been told was fed to the papers by pupil and not the school. I believe that the article was actually in the Sun but I have not had a chance to get to the library as that publication does not have online archives.
I recall the headline and would have read the article although I dont remember its contents, but Im pretty sure it related the events in the dormitory, otherwise why was his resignation in a national newspaper?
The letter accurately reflects my understanding of events at the time and the reasons given for such behaviour.
I dont believe it is evidence in itself of a cover up by Baker.
My take is that Webb mislead friends and colleagues and was economical with the truth, a point picked up on by HHJ Henson during sentencing when she mentioned he previously had the opportunity to wipe the slate clean.

In the interests of fairness and proportionality I would like to mention that the Silletts were always very kind and decent to me and were highly regarded by those close to me.
I knew their children who were all friendly, caring, concerned individuals. They stood out from the sheep who followed the nasty bullies
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Re: It's time for Sillett, Cairncross and Poulton to comment.

Post by marty »

richardb wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:50 am
I have been through the Daily Express archives online and I cannot find the article about Mr. Chips, which we have previously been told was fed to the papers by pupil and not the school. I believe that the article was actually in the Sun but I have not had a chance to get to the library as that publication does not have online archives.
I've also looked in the Express archive and British Newspaper archive and cannot find any article to do with Webb or the Mr Chips headline. The most interesting thing I found was a 1979 article in the Mirror about Ian Dury who stated that he passed the CH entrance exam but couldn't get a grant. He also said he didn't like the feel of the place or the uniform: "I was quite thankful. I didn't want to walk around wearing prattish uniforms and there was something about the place I didn't want to know about."

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co. ... 7/139/0017
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Re: It's time for Sillett, Cairncross and Poulton to comment.

Post by marty »

CodFlabAndMuck wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:17 pm

The letter accurately reflects my understanding of events at the time and the reasons given for such behaviour.
I dont believe it is evidence in itself of a cover up by Baker.
My take is that Webb mislead friends and colleagues and was economical with the truth, a point picked up on by HHJ Henson during sentencing when she mentioned he previously had the opportunity to wipe the slate clean.
Whole article

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/15776501 ... ol_jailed/

Relevant bit from the article

"These allegations took place after he targeted his other victims, but came to light while he was still working at the school. The revelation prompted his resignation, he confessed to the education department and left the school immediately, the court heard."



NB: he confessed. But Baker's letter doesn't mention any of that. Are you still REALLY sure there was no cover up?
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Re: It's time for Sillett, Cairncross and Poulton to comment.

Post by wurzel »

Maybe it wasn't the Express but i always believed it was - I can still see the article in my minds eye, it was an inside page about centre of the page and was a single or narrow double column with no picture probably about 4 inches in length with the headline split over 2 underlined lines as I remember things visually

Goodbye
Mr Chips


As for Cheap shots - well on the 3 people named at top of this thread

Poulton probably the most - he was not even in post when Webb & Burr happened and Husband & Karim were hired before he started so he could not comment on anything more than what he knew when

Caincross again not in post at Horsham for those 2. As a legal person you should know when the laws on anonymity changed but I doubt Mrs Caincross has your level of knowledge and if she did make a comment about the victims name ending up in the papers it must have been around the time the law changed - as I have said earlier it was I believe late 1992 when the change in the law came into force - when was that statement made, I am not as au fait as you as to the timeline of events ? Prior to that date what exactly constituted rape which was the only grounds for automatic anonymity. - this is actually the one i think is the cheapest shot as in the light of current anonymity rules it very much comes across as worry for the establishment but in an era when the pupils name might very well have been splashed across the papers I can at least as easily see it as genuine concern for the pupil - I do not know the date the comments were made,who the victim is or their emotional/ psychological state at the time so have to guess? As I knew her likely retirement date several years ago I think comment son it being linked to these cases also distasteful (she has been gradually changing role at Wells over the last 4 or 5 years)

Sillett, was in place for all but all I can say from my dealing with the Silletts (having known Mrs Sillett since i started primary school) I can think of few more upright and straight speaking people - my only criticism at all of my time under him was that in the jnr house jnr monitors had too much autonomous power - he did go out of his way to try and ensure people were not isolated (I was one of several people asked to befriend someone having trouble adjusting to CH - it didnt work and they left, but they returned for the LHB end of Boys house garden party). I have kept in touch since leaving and asked for advice on various issues and despite having no ongoing obligation to do so he has always done his best to help even going out of his way to contact people for me.

None of those people are on posting on this forum and having read through some of the posts I would likely advise them not to be as quite honestly I don't believe they would get a fair hearing - a few posters have decided they know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and so those teachers must have done so at the time. Did the other pupils at the school during the time the offences took place know what was happening ?
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Re: It's time for Sillett, Cairncross and Poulton to comment.

Post by J.R. »

richardb wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:50 am
The part of Baker’s letter (which is dated 24th February 1984) that relates to Webb reads as follows:

I write to inform you that, with regret, I have received and accepted the resignation of Mr. P J H Webb. Mr Webb has taught at Christ’s Hospital for eighteen years, and has made a considerable contribution to the School, for much of the time as Assistant Housemaster, and more recently as Housemaster. I will not need to remind you of the many and varied changes which have been, and are, taking place at Horsham in preparation for September 1985, or to emphasise the pressures which these changes have added to those of the very busy life here. Mr Webb has felt these pressures mere than most, not least as a result of the relocation of his House in the summer of last year. These pressures have produced strains which he has found it impossible to sustain, and which have affected his behaviour. This, and the medical advice he has sought, have led to his resignation. To assist his recovery he will be taking a complete break from teaching, and will be receiving professional advice and help. It is my hope that he will achieve a full recovery.”.
Sounds like the start of one of Grimms Fairy Stories !
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Re: It's time for Sillett, Cairncross and Poulton to comment.

Post by CodFlabAndMuck »

marty wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:56 pm
CodFlabAndMuck wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:17 pm

The letter accurately reflects my understanding of events at the time and the reasons given for such behaviour.
I dont believe it is evidence in itself of a cover up by Baker.
My take is that Webb mislead friends and colleagues and was economical with the truth, a point picked up on by HHJ Henson during sentencing when she mentioned he previously had the opportunity to wipe the slate clean.
Whole article

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/15776501 ... ol_jailed/

Relevant bit from the article

"These allegations took place after he targeted his other victims, but came to light while he was still working at the school. The revelation prompted his resignation, he confessed to the education department and left the school immediately, the court heard."



NB: he confessed. But Baker's letter doesn't mention any of that. Are you still REALLY sure there was no cover up?
There was a cover up but I believe it was engineered by Webb.
Paedophiles are very manipulative.
Baker didnt need to mention it, everyone in the school knew and so did the general public.
There was nothing to stop the police and CPS pursuing a prosecution, with or without the cooperation of others.
An admission of guilt is always very helpful in these cases.
If Baker knew about his long history of offending then that would put a completely different complexion on matters, but I havent seen any evidence yet to support that was the case.
I don't believe Shippen, Atkinson, Lorimer and the others would have continued to fraternize had they known, and certainly not in public.

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Re: It's time for Sillett, Cairncross and Poulton to comment.

Post by marty »

CodFlabAndMuck wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:51 pm
Paedophiles are very manipulative.
Baker didnt need to mention it, everyone in the school knew and so did the general public.
I agree that paedophiles are manipulative but if that's the case, how come "everyone" knew? And if everyone knew why the need for a letter? Doesn't make sense to me.
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Re: It's time for Sillett, Cairncross and Poulton to comment.

Post by richardb »

There have been very strict restrictions on naming children in criminal proceedings since the Children & Young Persons Act 1933.

Victims of sexual offences have had anonymity since the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 1976.

A teacher in a senior position at a school really ought to know at the very least about the 1933 Act.

I am firmly of the view that the school will be found to be hugely at fault in due course by the Court trying the civil claims. That is actually the only opinon that matters in the long run.

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Re: It's time for Sillett, Cairncross and Poulton to comment.

Post by wurzel »

richardb wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:29 pm


Victims of sexual offences have had anonymity since the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 1976.



I am firmly of the view that the school will be found to be hugely at fault in due course by the Court trying the civil claims. That is actually the only opinon that matters in the long run.
The 76 act only covered rape it was the 92 act which extended it to include other sexual offences - here is a commentary on the problems with the Act pre 92 - https://www.kent.ac.uk/law/spu/sexual_o ... t_1992.htm
Last edited by wurzel on Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: It's time for Sillett, Cairncross and Poulton to comment.

Post by richardb »

Wurzel,

1. Do you condemn the abuse that undoubtedly occurred?
2. Do you think that there are more victims than those who were named in the various indictments at court?
3. Do you think the victims should be properly compensated?

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Re: It's time for Sillett, Cairncross and Poulton to comment.

Post by wurzel »

richardb wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:40 pm
Wurzel,

1. Do you condemn the abuse that undoubtedly occurred?
2. Do you think that there are more victims than those who were named in the various indictments at court?
3. Do you think the victims should be properly compensated?
1. Totally and utterly

2. During my time period not sure, ever definitely

3. How do you compensate for that ? If you mean should they be given the best care/counselling etc possible with the tab picked up by the school/insurers then yes - if you mean thrown a few hundred K and told that makes up for it off you go - then no

As I said before - i wish people would actually say what they feel exactly should happen and what could mitigate the issue not just make sweeping accusation/innuendo etc and demand unspecified action
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Re: It's time for Sillett, Cairncross and Poulton to comment.

Post by richardb »

wurzel wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:45 pm
richardb wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:40 pm
Wurzel,

1. Do you condemn the abuse that undoubtedly occurred?
2. Do you think that there are more victims than those who were named in the various indictments at court?
3. Do you think the victims should be properly compensated?
1. Totally and utterly

2. During my time period not sure, ever definitely

3. How do you compensate for that ? If you mean should they be given the best care/counselling etc possible with the tab picked up by the school/insurers then yes - if you mean thrown a few hundred K and told that makes up for it off you go - then no

As I said before - i wish people would actually say what they feel exactly should happen and what could mitigate the issue not just make sweeping accusation/innuendo etc and demand unspecified action
Your third answers gives a huge insight into your mindset.

Sexual abuse, whether in children or adults, causes utter devastation. Many victims suffer PTSD on a serious scale.

A victim of abuse is entitled in law to damages for pain and suffering, medical treatment (past, present and future), loss of earnings, etc. That can often add up to hundreds of thousands. Are you saying that they should not be entitled to what the law considers to be the proper aard of damages just because you disagree with the size of the award?
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Re: It's time for Sillett, Cairncross and Poulton to comment.

Post by richardb »

I would like the school: (i) to accept responsibility for what occurred such as moving people on, giving glowing references, etc; and (ii) to compensate victims properly and in accordance with settled principles of law.

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Re: It's time for Sillett, Cairncross and Poulton to comment.

Post by wurzel »

richardb wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:52 pm
wurzel wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:45 pm
richardb wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:40 pm
Wurzel,

1. Do you condemn the abuse that undoubtedly occurred?
2. Do you think that there are more victims than those who were named in the various indictments at court?
3. Do you think the victims should be properly compensated?
1. Totally and utterly

2. During my time period not sure, ever definitely

3. How do you compensate for that ? If you mean should they be given the best care/counselling etc possible with the tab picked up by the school/insurers then yes - if you mean thrown a few hundred K and told that makes up for it off you go - then no

As I said before - i wish people would actually say what they feel exactly should happen and what could mitigate the issue not just make sweeping accusation/innuendo etc and demand unspecified action
Your third answers gives a huge insight into your mindset.

Sexual abuse, whether in children or adults, causes utter devastation. Many victims suffer PTSD on a serious scale.

A victim of abuse is entitled in law to damages for pain and suffering, medical treatment (past, present and future), loss of earnings, etc. That can often add up to hundreds of thousands. Are you saying that they should not be entitled to what the law considers to be the proper aard of damages just because you disagree with the size of the award?
No i didnt say anything about the size of the award to clarify i would rather see £1m spent on the best ptsd treatment/counselling etc than £100k given as a monetary sop as for loss of earning yes agree, also I would happily agree with a fund being set up to offer anonymous support to others who have not (and may not want to) come forward to offer then support in coming to terms with what has happened.

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