Roger Martin

This section was setup in August 2018 in order to move the existing related discussions from other sections into this new section to group them together, and separate from the other CH-related topics.

Moderator: Moderators

RusticationPhil
2nd Former
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:07 pm
Real Name: Philip Harrison
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: Roger Martin

Post by RusticationPhil » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:52 pm

harryh wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:21 pm
The authorities are fully aware.
I am not sure why you think they would not be aware.
Harry you were my housemaster in Maine, B during the early 90s. I was a fairly troublesome kid I am sure, but I thought you were generally a pretty fair guy, and a good housemaster. Just to be clear I dont blame you for any of this. I hope you and your family are doing well.

However, I distinctly remember you called a house meeting I am guesssing like in 1993, and you explained to us that our Maths teacher Mr *****, was being marched off the because he had tried to lure a boy up into his flat. I was in the unnamed teachers set for maths (set 6 or 5 I believe) so I remember it well. He used to disappear for most of the lesson, he kind of stank, and seemed drunk or hungover a lot. Do you remember that incident? It struck me as a bit unusual because in other incidents I remember that nothing was really said about it by the teachers, and it was decribed as an "elopement" e.g Husband and I think if I remember rightly the 2nd band master. In this case it was different, you told us the truth which was nice.

So when you say above that the authorities are aware of all these teachers that had "disappeared", does that mean:
a) you believe the police were alerted at the time of the incident by the school?
b) you believe a list of all these incidents has now been provided to the police by the school?
c) you presume that the police have done so much digging that they surely must be aware of these incidents by now?
d) you personally have provided the police with a comprehensive list of all you can remember?

So do you think that math teacher, for example, was allowed to go off and teach elsewhere? Certainly I am of the opinion that the school has failed in its duty of care if the answer is anything but a)

I ask because I am thinking, should I or you, inform the police about the math teacher incident? I am guessing that teacher's is probably dead now (liver failure?). Surely, you can understand that pupils such as myself that were there during for example Dobbie's time (I was never a victim, but I could have been, he was for example lurking around our scout camp in Wales, taking kids off for overnight trips in his Gypsy wagon), feel skeptical about your statement that the police have been informed about everything in its entirety? I mean the school did a good job at turning the other way/ making these things go quiet before. There is absolutely zero chance that the upper management suspected nothing about Dobbie and Husband. Should we trust that Poulton, Sillet and Cairncross have alerted the police to everything now?

I am interested to here your opinion?

Phil Harrison
These users thanked the author RusticationPhil for the post (total 6):
richardb (Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:55 pm) • TMF (Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:11 pm) • sejintenej (Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:01 pm) • J.R. (Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:21 am) • Scazza (Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:50 pm) • bakunin (Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:26 pm)
Rating: 35.29%

harryh
UF (Upper Fourth)
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:27 pm
Real Name: Howard Holdsworth
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 39 times

Re: Roger Martin

Post by harryh » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:49 pm

Dear Phil
How good to hear from you.
I am not being evasive, but for the sake of integrity, please accept my statement as it stands.

LHA
Deputy Grecian
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:35 pm
Real Name: Charles Henry
Has thanked: 67 times
Been thanked: 83 times

Re: Roger Martin

Post by LHA » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:34 pm

Howard, it' seems really obvious no one told the Police at the time about this kind of thing, tragically. It would be good if you could explain why.

Elvie
LE (Little Erasmus)
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:05 am
Real Name: Bal fobwell
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 54 times

Re: Roger Martin

Post by Elvie » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:18 am

To me this suggests that the authorities referenced are the Senior Management team, rather than the police.

I guess that is how the chain of reporting should have worked in any organisation, and harry's not obliged to comment on their actions or in-actions if they aren't prepared to speak for themselves.

harryh
UF (Upper Fourth)
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:27 pm
Real Name: Howard Holdsworth
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 39 times

Re: Roger Martin

Post by harryh » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:29 am

Spot on, Elvie.

yamaha
GE (Great Erasmus)
Posts: 199
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:27 pm
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 55 times

Re: Roger Martin

Post by yamaha » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:24 am

So the police have not been made "fully aware" by the present senior management of all the incidents/allegations of child abuse of which the senior management has knowledge ??? - and their "fully cooperating with police" statement is technical and perhaps misleading?

harryh
UF (Upper Fourth)
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:27 pm
Real Name: Howard Holdsworth
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 39 times

Re: Roger Martin

Post by harryh » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:55 am

Why do you infer that from my statement, Yamaha?

User avatar
Chrissie Boy
GE (Great Erasmus)
Posts: 119
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:19 am
Location: Rotherham
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 26 times

Re: Roger Martin

Post by Chrissie Boy » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:35 am

Personally I'm wondering whether the school authorities ever even made a note of the occasion on which the two boys from Barnes A went to Newsome to complain about RM's antics on behalf of the house. Newsome obviously had words with RM or the behaviour in question wouldn't have come to an immediate halt, but would any record have been kept of the complaint? Would there even have been a system for recording such things back in the 1970s or would a mere man-to-man chat have been the order of the day? I find it hard to imagine that the then School Secretary would've been privy to such matters. If the school has no records of such things, then its supposed co-operation with the police can hardly amount to much, especially with both Newsome and John Page deceased. And I strongly suspect that the majority of Old Blues may well still be quite unaware of the recent prosecutions, what with so few people being regular newspaper readers these days, so it follows that there may be a lot of potential victims and witnesses who, by dint of dwelling in darkness, simply aren't about to step forward and make statements unless another victim happens to mention their names to the police.
Last edited by Chrissie Boy on Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
These users thanked the author Chrissie Boy for the post (total 2):
TMF (Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:53 pm) • richardb (Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:14 pm)
Rating: 11.76%

User avatar
J.R.
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15700
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:53 pm
Real Name: John Rutley
Location: Dorking, Surrey
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 185 times

Re: Roger Martin

Post by J.R. » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:36 am

I have absolutely no doubt that the relevant department of the Sussex Police by now are fully aware of the current situation and the feelings that have been aroused.

In view of their ongoing investigations for more possibe charges, you can bet they monitor comments being made on this site for background information.

The constant badgering of two ex members of staff on here is becoming counter productive. At least they have had the decency to respond on here which is far more than the three wise monkeys who probably were very much in the know at the time. Mind you, I feel that their thunderous silence is due to legal advice.

Time will tell !
These users thanked the author J.R. for the post (total 8):
Chrissie Boy (Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:40 am) • marty (Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:46 am) • Jim Rayner (Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:18 pm) • harryh (Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:38 pm) • Katharine (Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:12 pm) • Scazza (Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:53 pm) • Ever Bluer (Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:47 pm) • richardb (Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:14 pm)
Rating: 47.06%
John Rutley. Prep B & Coleridge B. 1958-1963.

DeletedAccount
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Roger Martin

Post by DeletedAccount » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:11 pm

The constant badgering of two ex members of staff on here is becoming counter productive.
I think JR is absolutely right here.

My work has, unfortunately, involved critical incidents in which colleagues lost their lives. Some of them were dear friends. I was fortunate to be able to draw upon excellent psychological support to strengthen my ability to support families, friends and colleagues (I was in a key leadership position). None of them involved the type of appalling abuse that has taken place at CH, but the human impacts were enormous nonetheless.

Grief affects everyone in different ways, whether one is talking of innocent victims or otherwise. Anger and "lashing out" are common reactions, whether based on evidence or otherwise. It is the way that some people deal, and cope with, such events. And to be clear, this is not to question or criticise anger: in the case of victims (and others) anger is an absolutely understandable, appropriate and healthy reaction. Others may adopt very different coping mechanisms, even tho the impact of events on their lives may have been similar.

This forum has been an incredibly valuable and important space for people to read, write and reflect. The diversity of views, experiences and emotions expressed is what makes it so important. Respect, seriousness/humour and consideration are the foundations upon which this success is built. Every single contribution is important, none more so than those of the innocent victims of the appalling abuses that have taken place. But also every other contribution, including those of former/current teachers.
These users thanked the author DeletedAccount for the post (total 6):
Jim Rayner (Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:18 pm) • harryh (Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:40 pm) • J.R. (Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:51 pm) • Katharine (Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:13 pm) • richardb (Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:48 pm) • Ever Bluer (Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:46 pm)
Rating: 35.29%

User avatar
graham
Deputy Grecian
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:07 pm
Real Name: Graham Slater
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 68 times

Re: Roger Martin

Post by graham » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:51 pm

RusticationPhil wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:52 pm
harryh wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:21 pm
The authorities are fully aware.
I am not sure why you think they would not be aware.

I ask because I am thinking, should I or you, inform the police about the math teacher incident?

Phil Harrison
Hey Phil,

You should absolutely report your recollection of this event to the police. The more information they have the better, and that means both in terms of incidents of (potential) abuse and of the culture regarding how incidents were dealt with by the SMT. It'd also be good to report your memories of Dobbie on scout trips in case they back up reported but unprosecuted claims.

It's very reassuring to hear that Howard told you all what happened at the time (I don't remember this, so it must have been the 1993-94 academic year). I think we all sometimes wish he could be more open on here regarding his knowledge of how certain events were handled by the school, but it's understandable that he can't.
These users thanked the author graham for the post:
richardb (Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:51 pm)
Rating: 5.88%
Graham Slater
Maine B 1990 - 1993, Thorn A 1993 -1997

RusticationPhil
2nd Former
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:07 pm
Real Name: Philip Harrison
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: Roger Martin

Post by RusticationPhil » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:56 pm

Hey Thanks Graham,

Yes, I understand Mr Holdsworths' reluctance to go into any detail over this. Fair enough.

I now trust that he has done the decent thing and given the police all and every details he remembers about the incident with Mr McCall ,
and I will do likewise. I am guessing that Harry's statement is probably more useful to the police than mine as he likely even knew who the victim was.

Legal discalimer: I personally take all and full legal responsibility for naming the perpetrater here. If Mr McCall wants to sue me, I say lets have it, bring it ON!

Philip Harrison
These users thanked the author RusticationPhil for the post (total 2):
TMF (Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:58 pm) • bakunin (Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:45 pm)
Rating: 11.76%

User avatar
J.R.
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15700
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:53 pm
Real Name: John Rutley
Location: Dorking, Surrey
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 185 times

Re: Roger Martin

Post by J.R. » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:10 pm

I don't know for sure, but I feel pretty sure that Howard will have spoken to the relevant authorities.

Having said that, you should certainly contact them with your information RusticationPhil. Every bit of information helps.
John Rutley. Prep B & Coleridge B. 1958-1963.

yamaha
GE (Great Erasmus)
Posts: 199
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:27 pm
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 55 times

Re: Roger Martin

Post by yamaha » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:54 pm

Hi Howard, I’m just trying to understand what is being said in this thread, not making any inference. I am grateful for your informed contributions to this Forum and I apologize if my question this morning was badgering.

Comments have raised the question of what exactly the headmaster’s statement that CH is fully cooperating with the Police means in terms of scope.

This thread turned to discussing masters who unexpectedly disappeared following misconduct and there were questions about CH voluntarily disclosing information about those masters to the Police.

Referred to specifically was one case in the 1990s, but it is hard to tell from the limited information in the discussion if there was a criminal act or the master was fired in time to prevent one. The following exchange seemed to be solely in the context of that master.
by harryh » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:21 pm
The authorities are fully aware.
several comments and two weeks later:
by Elvie » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:18 am
To me this suggests that the authorities referenced are the Senior Management team, rather than the police.

by harryh » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:29 am
Spot on, Elvie.
I mistakenly assumed, from my confirmation bias and with reassurance, that “authorities” in the posts two weeks ago meant the Police, not the Senior Management. So this morning’s exchange with ‘Elvie’ came as a surprise.

That distinction could mean the Police have not been fully informed of everything the Senior Management knows or could know from diligent examination of the school's personnel records, and, maybe, that they are cooperating only with specific complaints.

I don’t recall a discussion on the utility of such information to prosecutors in the absence of a complainant, but that’s another debate.
These users thanked the author yamaha for the post (total 2):
richardb (Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:46 pm) • TMF (Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:50 pm)
Rating: 11.76%

DazedandConfused
Deputy Grecian
Posts: 266
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:20 pm
Real Name: J
Has thanked: 97 times
Been thanked: 157 times

Re: Roger Martin

Post by DazedandConfused » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:05 pm

RusticationPhil wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:56 pm

Legal discalimer: I personally take all and full legal responsibility for naming the perpetrater here. If Mr McCall wants to sue me, I say lets have it, bring it ON!
Is anyone else thinking of the lyrics of the Housey Rap here?

Post Reply