Black Lives Matter

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Re: Black Lives Matter

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Foureyes wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:01 am What I discovered, however, was that what outsiders consider to be one Jewish community is, in reality, split into two main groups, in the UK at least, with one considerably larger and more influential than the other. My proposed subject was a member of the minority group.

Lest anyone think that I did so for anti-semitic reasons, I should add that I remained very good friends with the original proposer until he died recently - of CoDiv-19. He had lost his wife two years ago and when he died neither of his sons were allowed to be with him for infection reasons. A tragic end for a very pleasant and decent man.
David :shock:
I lived in a Jewish area for many years and quite unconnectedly worked for an Israeli bank in London for a few years; absolutely delightful people in the bank. However I did come across what you say and I understand that there are even more divisions in Israel itself. It is those differences which seem to be causing so much problem in Israel. Jews and Muslims C A N get along as evidenced by the married owners of a Cafe in Holland I used to frequent.
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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sejintenej wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:20 am
I correspond almost daily with Americans from across that country; even within the USA cultures are extremely varied and many that I have encountered have been very different from most UK cultures. Hence I think we have to consider the two countries differently and the US is so vast with so many different national origins. Most of the family of a Ukrainian friend have gone to the US and are part of a Ukraine community - not an American one because there is no single American community. By contrast I have worked face to face at various times with educated Americans from California, Florida and New York and they had the manners and ideas which would fit perfectly in London business - and a few actually did. OTOH discussing Bayou Creole - totally the opposite.

I assume you read what I wrote about the Jamaican applying for a job in Leytonstone?

To me a major factor is culture.
A company I know well was founded in the early 1600's by thre e men. Of course they had multiple descendants. It grew both organically and by takeover and there was and is intermarriage between the descendants of the original three and the descendants of those who founded and ran the taken over companies. I can speak only for the original three; one was the grandson of a Hugenot who fled France and all three were/ became Quakers. Quakers have a reputation of reliability and service. Until the 1990s that company's chairman has always been a descendant of one of the original three. He had, of course, served in the Army (Welsh Guards), in the Olympic movement and other public offices**. Although his family became C of E the concept of service was just as strong in him and other descendants as in his forebears.
Incidentally it was one of that family who fought for me and another pupil when the HM at CH (probably Seaman) decided to insult Her Majesty by refusing to allow me to answer a summons to Buck House. He had taken the voluntary oath of alliegence (? sp) and promised to arrange for me to take it - a requisite throughout the family and friends
**Because I was not making the expected progress I was hauled before him and lectured before he sent me off to another company to be employed! (I declined the move!) That is how the family looked after its own and friends.

I mentioned the Chinese. One overseas Chinese family I know of; the pressure on the children to do well and become highly qualified is immense but then the rewards were great.
Another emigrated to the USA. Of the four children one became a mining company owner and was also a qualified Federal auditor. Another became the youngest even person to be a qualified UK actuary - I think she was 19 at the time. She died many years ago. The third also died early. By comparison the fourth (who my wife went to school with) is a mere successful horticulturalist but her daughter and her husband are vice presidents and part owners of a company they built up and was just admitted to the "big board". Yes, they do employ non-Chinese but never marry.

This culture exists elsewhere; Indians and I suspect especially Sinds. I dealt with one Indian businessman who was almost bankrupted by circumstances beyond anyone's control. I was not worried because I knew that other businessmen of his persuasion would and did pay his debts because he was one of them. They still remained a very tight knit community - a matter of culture.
The Emir of Sokoto, a Moslem, adopted this culture amongst his subjects whilst Nigeria was part of the Empire. In consequence it turned out that those he had fostered and sent to university in England took all the top jobs because they were the best qualified. This was to cause problems possibly even now.

I had to deal with UK employment agencies and the rep for one of the biggest told me that employment agencies are involved in 10 to 15% of new hires. The rest come from word of mouth. When such a high proportion of jobs are filled by friends, relatives and other acquaintances how can there be widespread mixing? He had to find people who would fit in with me though he did not really know me well; I suspect that he would only put forward whites.
In fact where I finished up were were a real hotchpoch. Amongst the final 25 I think we had 15 nationalities, several colours including black and different religions including Moslems. My secretary was the only one not at least bilingual and at least two people spoke five or more different languages. Differences simply didn't matter; almost all the girls were invited to the wedding of one of them - an 8 hour Sikh ceremony - that was how the office operated.

The UK is beset by widely divergent cultures. There are those like Cadbury and Peabody who strive to help their employees and those around and those like the Indian man who ran a highly successful sweatshop in the midlands. We are beset by language; I understand that there are schools in London where incoming pupils speak over 100 different languages; we need to do a France and make the use of Oxbridge English and only Oxbridge English compulsory from birth because until everybody speaks the same language we will always be a nation of different peoples. THEN we can start to create a homogenous society

Even within white British of apparently British ancestry I have seen stupidity. There is a branch of a huge nationwide and I think multinational, a branch of which had a viewing platform over;looking the London Olympic site. Talking to a manager before the Olympic games he was expecting to be overrun by people who had come to the games - understandable. I then asked how many of his staff could speak a foreign language;he thought that there might be one "downstairs" who spoke an Eastern European language and that was all!. A very British clothing retailer in Regent Street had signs in Japanese all over but had no Japanese speakers. By contrast a friend runs a small French wine domaine; all his staff speak English, most Spanish and I know of some who speak Polish and Russian. He employs a Chinese for the language.

Talk about not-so-good examples! We need to set our own house in order before we tell others to behave like us or should we copy the often violent ways of the Jamaicans?

Don't worry; I have already put on my flak jacket.
David, these are all very nice examples of cases that related to the actions of individuals or specific organizations. I don't deny that biases and prejudice exist outside of the realm that the Black Lives Matter movement is focused on. I want to go back to my original question though. My position is that systemic racism is this cause of the low representation of British Black people in positions of power with the UK. There are alternative possible explanations. What position do you take? And what, if anything, do you think should be done to deal with this?

I will throw in another position that I take. I do not believe that racist behavior has to involve conscious dislike/ discrimination. Well-intentioned people can unintentionally propogate systemic racism. In fact, people of color can unintentionally propogate systemic racism. I don't attribute any intent to these actions. I just want to know what you think about this.
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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graham wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:16 pm
David, these are all very nice examples of cases that related to the actions of individuals or specific organizations. I don't deny that biases and prejudice exist outside of the realm that the Black Lives Matter movement is focused on. I want to go back to my original question though. My position is that systemic racism is this cause of the low representation of British Black people in positions of power with the UK. There are alternative possible explanations. What position do you take? And what, if anything, do you think should be done to deal with this?

I will throw in another position that I take. I do not believe that racist behavior has to involve conscious dislike/ discrimination. Well-intentioned people can unintentionally propogate systemic racism. In fact, people of color can unintentionally propogate systemic racism. I don't attribute any intent to these actions. I just want to know what you think about this.
Not sure how to take your second para; you seem to be damning the idea of employing people just to get the proportions right???? When I had tlo choose applicants I would choose honesty first (willingness to admit error for example), then ability to get on with the many types of people in the office (which suggests they would be good dealing with clients), ability / open to learning - they had to commit to and receptive learn Portuguese (the bank arranged and paid for lessons). We had a very very low turnover of staff despite what must have looked like a rapid decision - two short interviews

take the role of the various deities, politicians, teachers, priests and their equivalents, parents, kids, the judiciary and foreign leaders. Anything that anyone suggests is by definition anathema to everyone else so, flak jacket on, here goes.

I have already stated that I consider "culture" in its widest form a basic.

1. Define the final outcome, Do you want everybody to be kind and polite and helpful to everybody's grannies and pet mouses or do you want to go to a loud mouthed foul language using yob culture of "everybody for himself and f**k everyone else or something in between? Define what you want and you will have Putin, angie-girl Merkel and the Chump all over you.

2. Clean up the law. There is an excellent series of novels about he taming of Mars, it's independence war ..... They had the opportunity to start from the beginning and the law calls for "common sense" in everything. You burn yourself on a cup of coffee commonsense says that coffee is hot. Therefore it is nobody else's fault and responsibility. The floor is damp and you slip - common sense says you should have avoided the place or been careful and the shopkeeper is not liable unless it is proven that he deliberately hurt you. You either commit an offence or you did not; no mitigating circumstances allowed. That should cut each case to 30 minutes and each offence has a terrifying punishment and no time off for good behaviour. They are merciful; sentences start at 5 years and with a life sentence the prisoner is offered a suicide pill.

3. Re teach teachers in the new culture. Take them from their own area and put them far away (French style). Move them around every five years so they cannot create a sub culture. Frequent overseeing checks.

4. One language and only one allowed with the same grammar and pronunciation from the Gorbals to Land End to Cockneyland - enforced.
.
5. Two minimal standards to leave school - one academic and one trade. In my day CH enforced the rule that you left with an absolute minimum of 5 GCE O levels. It can be achieved, even by many dyslexics and standards then were far higher..

6. Everybody responsible for what they do or fail to do. Example, Crossrail was due to be completes 2 years ago but now it might be next year; the bosses and the civil servants who failed to call them out at the start got it wrong so crucify them in the face of public hate. You could be justified by bringing in some of the responsible underlings as well. For a start fine them the salaries they have been paid since 2018.

7. Support those who try to create jobs and employment by immediate approvals, help ,etc - don't wait for a committee to be called the year after next.

8 Then make a plan as to how you are going to achieve it and tell the commies to shut up!!!!

9 Find a desert island where you will not be found.
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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by Foureyes »

A huge subject concerns the Dalits (Untouchables) in Indian culture!!! Just as bad today as it was a hundred, perhaps even a thousand years ago.
David :shock:
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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Foureyes wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:29 pm A huge subject concerns the Dalits (Untouchables) in Indian culture!!! Just as bad today as it was a hundred, perhaps even a thousand years ago.
David :shock:
Just one well known situation. It goes for many other Indian groups (I don't want to use the word tribe to describe for example Sinds and Sikhs). The office I worked in In Accra had staff of 7 tribes, all coloured but many of whom would not work with other tribes. Kenya the same problem. South Africa the same - both tribal and also government sponsored colour., English versus French (???**) speakers in Canada, Bangla immigrant descendants v others in Brick Lane , peelers v old money in the UK, RC v CofI in Ulster, Russian versus ?Ukrainian speakers in the Crimea, - it is everywhere and it usually has absolutely nothing to do with colour.
It is to do with culture and religion and language and work and even what they eat and how smelly their f*rts are. However well intentioned they may be the BLM movement will not win because of the international diversity and because some governments are against them.

** this goes back to the Oil speakers from the north west who went to Canada compared to the Oil speakers from the Ile de France whose dialects were merged to create modern French. Think of Geordie versus Oxbridge. France had (and still has) two very different languages named after the word for "yes" - Oil in the north and Oc as in Langue d' Oc in the south.
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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Just thinking after watching a teacher playing the piano to his students on some program

We need REAL leaders in this country. Who, if anyone here, remembers Kimi Makarion on Blue Peter. No-one, I am not surprised. She is a Japanese lady who taught. unpaid, in a UK primary school.
Her pupils were shown on Blue Peter doing complicated (from me) mathematics in their heads - 5 numbers times five numbers and getting correct answers as soon as the numbers were spoken.

With that skill at one period a week for just one term she was sacked because the school could not afford the time for her to impart her skills. (She is qualified with a doctorate in Mathematics)

This sort of thing is happening across the country at all levels. It is about time we had people in charge who can make the right decisions. My local council is abandoning a lot of recycling but when asked, refused to give us any information as to what is no longer being recycled. Obviously we, those who pay their wages, are incompetent or two stupid to be given such information
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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"My local council is abandoning a lot of recycling but when asked, refused to give us any information as to what is no longer being recycled. Obviously we, those who pay their wages, are incompetent or two stupid to be given such information"

Do you not have a local councillor and/or MP who can take this up on your behalf?
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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sejintenej wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:44 pm Not sure how to take your second para; you seem to be damning the idea of employing people just to get the proportions right????
Not at all. With a caveat. If an organization recognizes that its hiring policies have resulted in an employee demographic that is racially biased, adjusting hiring policies such that racial diversity is part of the final consideration is a completely legitimate endeavour. The caveat is that is that the applicants considered must be qualified for the position at hand; one does not just hire any old person to "make up the numbers". But, having a search fail because of a lack of diverse, qualified applicants is a possibility, rather than just adding more of the same.

This idea already exists of course. It's the foundation of affirmative action. Some view affirmative action as racist because it discriminates against racial groups in the majority. But, such policies are actually anti-racist. They seek to correct imbalance.
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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sejintenej wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:44 pm
I have already stated that I consider "culture" in its widest form a basic.

1. Define the final outcome, Do you want everybody to be kind and polite and helpful to everybody's grannies and pet mouses or do you want to go to a loud mouthed foul language using yob culture of "everybody for himself and f**k everyone else or something in between? Define what you want and you will have Putin, angie-girl Merkel and the Chump all over you.

2. Clean up the law. There is an excellent series of novels about he taming of Mars, it's independence war ..... They had the opportunity to start from the beginning and the law calls for "common sense" in everything. You burn yourself on a cup of coffee commonsense says that coffee is hot. Therefore it is nobody else's fault and responsibility. The floor is damp and you slip - common sense says you should have avoided the place or been careful and the shopkeeper is not liable unless it is proven that he deliberately hurt you. You either commit an offence or you did not; no mitigating circumstances allowed. That should cut each case to 30 minutes and each offence has a terrifying punishment and no time off for good behaviour. They are merciful; sentences start at 5 years and with a life sentence the prisoner is offered a suicide pill.

3. Re teach teachers in the new culture. Take them from their own area and put them far away (French style). Move them around every five years so they cannot create a sub culture. Frequent overseeing checks.

4. One language and only one allowed with the same grammar and pronunciation from the Gorbals to Land End to Cockneyland - enforced.
.
5. Two minimal standards to leave school - one academic and one trade. In my day CH enforced the rule that you left with an absolute minimum of 5 GCE O levels. It can be achieved, even by many dyslexics and standards then were far higher..

6. Everybody responsible for what they do or fail to do. Example, Crossrail was due to be completes 2 years ago but now it might be next year; the bosses and the civil servants who failed to call them out at the start got it wrong so crucify them in the face of public hate. You could be justified by bringing in some of the responsible underlings as well. For a start fine them the salaries they have been paid since 2018.

7. Support those who try to create jobs and employment by immediate approvals, help ,etc - don't wait for a committee to be called the year after next.

8 Then make a plan as to how you are going to achieve it and tell the commies to shut up!!!!

9 Find a desert island where you will not be found.
Ok, so I understand you are in favor of a homogenized culture in which everyone follows a series of standards set from on high, and that you would move people around to prevent the establishment of any localized pockets of like-minded folks. Sounds a bit like a cult / facist regime to me, but ok.

I still await your response to my genuine query though. Do you agree that systemic racism is this cause of the low representation of British Black people in positions of power with the UK. If not, what do you think is the cause of this? And regardless of the cause, what, if anything, do you think should be done to deal with this under-representation?
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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graham wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:06 am
Ok, so I understand you are in favor of a homogenized culture in which everyone follows a series of standards set from on high, and that you would move people around to prevent the establishment of any localized pockets of like-minded folks. Sounds a bit like a cult / facist regime to me, but ok.
I see our cultures (how we are brought up) as inculcating ideas from childhood; he's fat therefore he's ........ he's black therefore he's .......
You will accept that such ideas are wrong - not all fat people are (whatever) etc so how do you prevent that apart from total equality of upbringing.
The problem is differences. If someone tries to speak to you in Geordie or Glaswegian what is your reaction? In Brazil I had problems with one boss because we spoke different Portuguese dialects. He knew I baited him because I could switch from Carioca to (poor) Paulistano! Otherwise we were friends. In France we had none of that - my neighbour spoke a broad patois (it took me 3 years to understand him!) but with one exception there were no problems with people from elsewhere whatsoever. The exception was with those from one specific city who liked to show and say that they were better than the local paysans. Despite being a foreigner I was even chosen by the French over French people for a minor role in the hamlet.
I still await your response to my genuine query though. Do you agree that systemic racism is this cause of the low representation of British Black people in positions of power with the UK. If not, what do you think is the cause of this? And regardless of the cause, what, if anything, do you think should be done to deal with this under-representation?
Define SYSTEMIC racism. The definition I found (ignoring one specifically medical) was " relating to a system, especially as opposed to a particular part"..
The "system" refers to humans in general and not one particular part such as white, black, yellow, police, having copid19 etc etc. ie subject to overall government teaching and control. Individually we are the product of our upbringing, experience, conditions under which we live. Ergo it is neither systemic nor nationally systematic. I would like to think that white and coloured pupils at CH, having lived and suffered together do not have that bias.
I very specifically included the word nationally because there seems to be evidence that the US police seem to have in inbred anti black bias - and I do not suspect that those officers were anti-black before they joined. The UK seems to be very different; there was a case of white officers getting "rough" with a group of whites under strange circumstances (ie not during a demonstration nor drunken behaviour) and there is the well advertised claim that blacks are stopped and searched more that whites. Having been exposed to West Indian descendants I know that their normal behaviour can be noisy, raucous, call it what you like but to someone not used to it it seems threatening. Get an inexperienced white officer befronted by someone seeming to scream "hey man" at him and he could well be very nervous and react. A lot of the officers on the street are inexperienced - the experienced ones are behind the scenes in specialised roles.
I had today an examination by an Indian specialist, two days ago the lady seemed to be West Indian and in both cases I had no worries being one-on-one with them because of their behaviour OTOH in the tube train when a ?West Indian, while looking at me, drew back the side of his jacket to display a big knife I thought somewhat differently and prepared to repel the coming attack. (In fact there was no attack - he got off at the next station.
IF that last man had been brought up like the rest of us then there would not be a problem because he would have behaved differently.

So, my position is that I judge individuals as they individually behave.
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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sejintenej wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:19 pm
Define SYSTEMIC racism. The definition I found (ignoring one specifically medical) was " relating to a system, especially as opposed to a particular part"..
That's a good definition of "systemic" as an adjective. I'll give you Sir William Macpherson's definition applying it to racism.

"The collective failure of an organization to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture, or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviour that amount to discrimination through prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness, and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people"

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, note that this definition acknowledges that the impacts of systemic racism may be felt regardless of intent. That is to say, the organization might consciously discriminate against a minority group of people but might also occur unconsciously. The intent is not important. It is the impact, measured as the exclusion of a particular group, that matters. And, on this basis, I repeat my charge that systemic racism is an issue in the UK and requires correction. What say you?
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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sejintenej wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:19 pm
The problem is differences. If someone tries to speak to you in Geordie or Glaswegian what is your reaction? In Brazil I had problems with one boss because we spoke different Portuguese dialects. He knew I baited him because I could switch from Carioca to (poor) Paulistano! Otherwise we were friends. In France we had none of that - my neighbour spoke a broad patois (it took me 3 years to understand him!) but with one exception there were no problems with people from elsewhere whatsoever. The exception was with those from one specific city who liked to show and say that they were better than the local paysans. Despite being a foreigner I was even chosen by the French over French people for a minor role in the hamlet.
Out of interest, what makes you think I'm not a Geordie or Glaswegian? And, regardless of whether or not I am, am I to take from your statement that you view these accents as inferior to some other class of british accents? If you feel differences are the root of all evil, what will the common language / accent be? And, who will decide this?
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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graham wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:21 pm
sejintenej wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:19 pm
The problem is differences. If someone tries to speak to you in Geordie or Glaswegian what is your reaction? In Brazil I had problems with one boss because we spoke different Portuguese dialects. He knew I baited him because I could switch from Carioca to (poor) Paulistano! Otherwise we were friends. In France we had none of that - my neighbour spoke a broad patois (it took me 3 years to understand him!) but with one exception there were no problems with people from elsewhere whatsoever. The exception was with those from one specific city who liked to show and say that they were better than the local paysans. Despite being a foreigner I was even chosen by the French over French people for a minor role in the hamlet.
Out of interest, what makes you think I'm not a Geordie or Glaswegian? And, regardless of whether or not I am, am I to take from your statement that you view these accents as inferior to some other class of british accents? If you feel differences are the root of all evil, what will the common language / accent be? And, who will decide this?
Given that you were at CH I think it very likely that any such accent was forceably removed. Mr Jones, housemaster in Prep A was very down on regional dialects as my ass found out.
For me it is a question of being unable to understand them. Try reading the Address to the Haggis!
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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graham wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:21 pm
sejintenej wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:19 pm
The problem is differences. If someone tries to speak to you in Geordie or Glaswegian what is your reaction? In Brazil I had problems with one boss because we spoke different Portuguese dialects. He knew I baited him because I could switch from Carioca to (poor) Paulistano! Otherwise we were friends. In France we had none of that - my neighbour spoke a broad patois (it took me 3 years to understand him!) but with one exception there were no problems with people from elsewhere whatsoever. The exception was with those from one specific city who liked to show and say that they were better than the local paysans. Despite being a foreigner I was even chosen by the French over French people for a minor role in the hamlet.
Out of interest, what makes you think I'm not a Geordie or Glaswegian? And, regardless of whether or not I am, am I to take from your statement that you view these accents as inferior to some other class of british accents? If you feel differences are the root of all evil, what will the common language / accent be? And, who will decide this?
Given that you were at CH I think it very likely that any such accent was forceably removed. Mr Jones, housemaster in Prep A was very down on regional dialects as my ass found out.
For me it is a question of being unable to understand them. Try reading the Address to the Haggis!
Who will decide? perhaps the BBC who were doing a reasonable job until they were got at and started using regional languages
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Ajarn Philip
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Posts: 1850
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:30 pm
Real Name: Phil Underwood
Location: UK, Robin Hood country
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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by Ajarn Philip »

sejintenej wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:29 am Given that you were at CH I think it very likely that any such accent was forceably removed. Mr Jones, housemaster in Prep A was very down on regional dialects as my ass found out.
I think you'll find some things have changed since the 1950s...
Who will decide? perhaps the BBC who were doing a reasonable job until they were got at and started using regional languages
Welcome to the 21st century, David! RP hasn't been around for a long time, except among the privileged classes, and the English language is all the better for it.
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