Classical music fans - to warble or not to warble?

[Richard Ruck]

my brother's a brass player, and I remember him saying vibrato was commonly used on the cornet and euphonium, but not the trumpet given the already shrill notes being played. brass bands tend to use a very fast vibrato, whereas for e.g. a saxophone section in a big band would use a slower vibrato (but only as a soloist, not when in unison!).

and just for info we're from Horsham, not 'up North'! but I think my info on brass playing is up-to-date!

Sound right to me!

[Richard Ruck]

His clear unforgettable tone was marked with a constant vibrato, the result of a boyhood accident when a mule kicked him in the face, resulting in partial paralysis!

As a (mostly ex-)trombone player myself, I struggle to imagine how that might work. Could it be replicated by a visit to the dentist followed by 7 or 8 large vodkas?

A nice anecdote!

[eloisec]

I need the vodkas before going to a dentist

as a trombonist perhaps you could explain to me why there's a valve and slide trombone? isn't the slide one enough? I remember one of the trombonists in the CH band having a valve trombone (even though he was the euphonium player).

mind you, slide tropmbones could be quite lethal when out marching, especially when they collided with bassoons ... I wrote off many a good reed!

[Richard Ruck]

Not too sure about valve trombones....

Apparently they came into being in 1820's Vienna - the slide-trombone being descended from much older instruments.

As with any valved instrument, faster passages of music and ornamentation are made easier, and I suppose that intonation must be a bit easier for the less-developed player.

The switch from euphonium to valve trombone should be an absolute doddle, given that they're both B flat tenor instruments. I would imagine that the fingering's the same, too.

Given that there is relatively little demand for the euphonium outside band music, your colleague was probably doing the sensible thing in playing an instrument which affords many more musical opportunities.

Re. slides, yes, they could be a menace, especially in the hands of newer players. You could take someone's eye out with one of those......

[eloisec]

b flat tenor euphonium? I never got the clef thing with euphoniums, I used to always nick the euphonium bass clef parts, bassoon arrangements were so boring. offbeat anyone?!

a habit I've continued to this day in the bands I now play in!

[FrogBoxed]

Does anyone else share my personal dislike for warbling sopranos?

Yes! I reckon they end up looking (and sometimes sounding) like a cat that's about to throw up!

[Great Plum]

I can't be doing with vibrato - it can ruin a very good piece...

[jfdawson]

Vibrato should NEVER be used by the amateur, but almost invariably is.

Although I'm often in favour of vibrato (within limits), I'm in total agreement with you here. There is a major difference between vibrato which is done by people either because cannot sing without it, or simply they think that is "how it should be done" , and vibrato which can be controlled and employed as a performance aid (possibly to different degrees). I suspect this is what you mean by the amateur/professional distinction.

At its best, a well-used vibrato can (in my opinion) really enhance a performance, either solo or in an ensemble. I've sung in various professional/semi-professional choirs where individual voices blend well so that it is impossible to pick out any individual voices/vibrato, and yet the overall sound is certainly enriched by it. When singing solo I would normally use vibrato, but employ it to a greater or lesser extent depending on the music. I think the key is being able to maintain the notes being sung/played as the focus of the sound, rather than just having a varying pitch around the rough vicinity of the note, which certainly sounds like warbling to me...

As well as the style of the music, I think it also depends on the instrument. As others have pointed out, there are certain wind & brass instruments where non-vibrato would be considered the norm. But as a cellist, the thought of playing any music composed after about 1830 without any vibrato would seem (and sound) really strange to me (Julian, as a fellow cellist, would you agree?).

So in summary: vibrato yes (sometimes), warbling no!

[J.R.]

I'm sure Anne Summers would vote in favour !!!!

[jtaylor]

Vibrato should NEVER be used by the amateur, but almost invariably is.

But as a cellist, the thought of playing any music composed after about 1830 without any vibrato would seem (and sound) really strange to me (Julian, as a fellow cellist, would you agree?).

So in summary: vibrato yes (sometimes), warbling no!

I'd definitely agree - using it judisciously seems the approach, and not using it to hide the fact that the singer can't hit the right note dead-on! It does seem to have become a standard thing to do these days though, on every note!

[Hendrik]

I'm sure Anne Summers would vote in favour !!!!

most likely, tame tho anne summers is.

as a recent newcomer to classic fm, i have been increasingly pissed off by that godawful warbly w@nk.

not warble. defo.

[wow, this is the most agreement we've ever had on a topic]

[cj]

This is one of my real pet hates. I'm not an instrumentalist any longer, so can only comment on singing. It is not a sound I enjoy listening to - I cannot stand Katherine Jenkins, Lesley Garrett etc - but as several people have said, its use is dependant on the period and context of the music. A little vibrato in the voice is a natural phenomenon and is pleasant to use when singing long notes etc to give a little 'colour'. I understand that much vibrato is the "Italian" style of training a voice (Pavarotti et al), whereas with the "English" style it is less commonly used and a clearer tone is the target (think Cathedral choirs, Emma Kirkby etc). The latter is more commonly used for early music. In one of the choirs I sing with, it is absolutely forbidden - we only sing early music (are currently doing a recording for an American publisher for use in tv and film as background music) - but for other choirs and some solo work, especially during a bit of Victorian slush, a judicious application may be required. This is partly why I don't sing in large choral societies any more with 300 hooty altos going at it full pelt all the time.

Compare and contrast Dido's Lament by Jessye Norman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvYgqg6_ ... ed&search=

and Emma Kirkby http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAnQQ4_Jpd8

I know which one I'd rather listen to!

[graham]

I was going to ask if anyone else had completely misread the title of the survey question at the top of this topic ....

.. and then I remembered that JR is on this board, and I felt less alone.

[J.R.]

I was going to ask if anyone else had completely misread the title of the survey question at the top of this topic ....

.. and then I remembered that JR is on this board, and I felt less alone.

Reed or Marsh ???

That's what I want to know !

[englishangel]

Surely there can't be that many mules about nowadays though!