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cj wrote:This is one of my real pet hates. I'm not an instrumentalist any longer, so can only comment on singing. It is not a sound I enjoy listening to - I cannot stand Katherine Jenkins, Lesley Garrett etc - but as several people have said, its use is dependant on the period and context of the music. A little vibrato in the voice is a natural phenomenon and is pleasant to use when singing long notes etc to give a little 'colour'. I understand that much vibrato is the "Italian" style of training a voice (Pavarotti et al), whereas with the "English" style it is less commonly used and a clearer tone is the target (think Cathedral choirs, Emma Kirkby etc). The latter is more commonly used for early music. In one of the choirs I sing with, it is absolutely forbidden - we only sing early music (are currently doing a recording for an American publisher for use in tv and film as background music) - but for other choirs and some solo work, especially during a bit of Victorian slush, a judicious application may be required. This is partly why I don't sing in large choral societies any more with 300 hooty altos going at it full pelt all the time.
However, apart from strings (where vibrato is the accepted norm to achieve a smoothness of sound), I stick to my original assertion that in singing, vibrato should only ever be used by the professional soloist. It is anathema in any choir. I have conducted many choirs from large choral societies down to small madrigal groups - wobbly ladies have invariably been my biggest bugbear and getting the point across to them requires infinite affection and tact.
cj wrote:This is one of my real pet hates. I'm not an instrumentalist any longer, so can only comment on singing. It is not a sound I enjoy listening to - I cannot stand Katherine Jenkins, Lesley Garrett etc - but as several people have said, its use is dependant on the period and context of the music. A little vibrato in the voice is a natural phenomenon and is pleasant to use when singing long notes etc to give a little 'colour'. I understand that much vibrato is the "Italian" style of training a voice (Pavarotti et al), whereas with the "English" style it is less commonly used and a clearer tone is the target (think Cathedral choirs, Emma Kirkby etc). The latter is more commonly used for early music. In one of the choirs I sing with, it is absolutely forbidden - we only sing early music (are currently doing a recording for an American publisher for use in tv and film as background music) - but for other choirs and some solo work, especially during a bit of Victorian slush, a judicious application may be required. This is partly why I don't sing in large choral societies any more with 300 hooty altos going at it full pelt all the time.
However, apart from strings (where vibrato is the accepted norm to achieve a smoothness of sound), I stick to my original assertion that in singing, vibrato should only ever be used by the professional soloist. It is anathema in any choir. I have conducted many choirs from large choral societies down to small madrigal groups - wobbly ladies have invariably been my biggest bugbear and getting the point across to them requires infinite affection and tact.
Indeed, the point of singing with a choir, ie. in a group, is to achieve a sound which is a blend of all the individual voices, with no one person's voice standing dominant above the others. It is immensely difficult as it means having to lose your ego (something which amateur singers seem to have in abundance, often in inverse proportion to their musicality and ability - miaow!) and become simply one of many and, up to a point, indistinct. But that will distinguish the really superior choir from the inferior. And of course proper vibrato has to be learned - as instrumentalists do scales and 'studies' to polish technique, so the singer does vocal exercises for tuning and tone and learns studies for turns, mordents, trills, portamento etc. as well as vibrato. Wobbling your bottom lip up and down does not count!
Catherine Standing (Cooper) Canteen Cath 1.12 (1983-85) & Col A 20 (1985-90) Any idiot can deal with a crisis. It takes a genius to cope with everyday life.
When I was the vice president of the choral society, we had a number of elderly ladies who were in someway connected to the university who used to sing with us. Trouble was, they sang with such gusto and vague tuning that they often drowned out all but the loudest bass...
Fortunately, our rather mad conductor (which for some reason was loved by the old dears) frequently told them to stop singing like Pavarotti and shut the f*ck up...! (His words, not mine!)
Great Plum wrote:When I was the vice president of the choral society, we had a number of elderly ladies who were in someway connected to the university who used to sing with us. Trouble was, they sang with such gusto and vague tuning that they often drowned out all but the loudest bass...
Fortunately, our rather mad conductor (which for some reason was loved by the old dears) frequently told them to stop singing like Pavarotti and shut the f*ck up...! (His words, not mine!)
I love it!!! It beats my last choirmaster for lack of tact and discretion.
Catherine Standing (Cooper) Canteen Cath 1.12 (1983-85) & Col A 20 (1985-90) Any idiot can deal with a crisis. It takes a genius to cope with everyday life.
a very interesting chap - he was a manic depressant and consequently had these huge mood swings. Not only did her run our choir, was the musical director at a theatre in the city, teach music at the VI form college and was a music examiner, he sometimes also used to work at a petrol station if money was tight... he used to spend much of the evening regalling us with stories about the customers or his cats...
Great Plum wrote:Yes, Paul was quite brilliant like that...
a very interesting chap - he was a manic depressant and consequently had these huge mood swings. Not only did her run our choir, was the musical director at a theatre in the city, teach music at the VI form college and was a music examiner, he sometimes also used to work at a petrol station if money was tight... he used to spend much of the evening regalling us with stories about the customers or his cats...
You went to Exeter didn't you? My husband knows and has sung with most of the music crowd there (he went to art college there and teaches at the Exeter campus of the University of Plymouth - though only for a few weeks more before the big move) and I wonder if it's someone he knows? Did you know that the music department has been closed down at Exeter Uni? Fairly stunning news. And now no facility for art and design in higher education in the city either. Will Exeter become a cultural oasis?
Catherine Standing (Cooper) Canteen Cath 1.12 (1983-85) & Col A 20 (1985-90) Any idiot can deal with a crisis. It takes a genius to cope with everyday life.
Catherine Standing (Cooper) Canteen Cath 1.12 (1983-85) & Col A 20 (1985-90) Any idiot can deal with a crisis. It takes a genius to cope with everyday life.
midget wrote: Like you cj, I do not enjoy the Kathryn Jenkins of this world-I'm glad I am not alone.
Maggie
I have no doubt that she is technically a good singer, able and musical etc, it's just that I don't particularly like the sound she makes and wouldn't choose to listen to it. It's a personal preference, isn't it, like whether you prefer tea, coffee or a stiff gin! She is certainly popular though, and her recording company make sure that all her assets are utilised in the quest for £. I find it quite interesting that she is categorised as an opera singer although I understand that she has yet to sing a complete opera on stage (not all parts obviously - Pavarotti might be able to do that with his amazing vibrato that apparently covers a fifth).
Catherine Standing (Cooper) Canteen Cath 1.12 (1983-85) & Col A 20 (1985-90) Any idiot can deal with a crisis. It takes a genius to cope with everyday life.
I have to confess to quite enjoying Kathryn Jenkins but then Mr McKelvie did tell me I was tone deaf and refused to allow me to join the choir!
Since then my singing has been confined to the privacy of my bathroom, rugby club bars football grounds and Church if there are plenty in. Otherwise I mime.
Great Plum wrote:Yes, Paul was quite brilliant like that...
a very interesting chap - he was a manic depressant and consequently had these huge mood swings. Not only did her run our choir, was the musical director at a theatre in the city, teach music at the VI form college and was a music examiner, he sometimes also used to work at a petrol station if money was tight... he used to spend much of the evening regalling us with stories about the customers or his cats...
You went to Exeter didn't you? My husband knows and has sung with most of the music crowd there (he went to art college there and teaches at the Exeter campus of the University of Plymouth - though only for a few weeks more before the big move) and I wonder if it's someone he knows? Did you know that the music department has been closed down at Exeter Uni? Fairly stunning news. And now no facility for art and design in higher education in the city either. Will Exeter become a cultural oasis?
I'm sure he would know Paul...
I had heard about the music department - a great waste imho - there will still be musical facilities but it won't be the same!
The South Bank Show this evening featured Dame Emma K. She effortlessly appears to make the most beautiful sound - even sitting down. By contrast, the church choir shouted their way through Brewer in D this evening.
Catherine Standing (Cooper) Canteen Cath 1.12 (1983-85) & Col A 20 (1985-90) Any idiot can deal with a crisis. It takes a genius to cope with everyday life.
