Are we alone?

[ailurophile]

ailurophile wrote:

It’s true that independent education is a choice. But as I’ve said elsewhere on this thread, CH is unique in that it makes that choice available specifically to those who cannot afford it!

Hi

May I ask whether you would still want your children to attend the school, and whether they would agree to attend, if it were only about the quality of education and the affordable cost?

To elucidate: if costs were cut by offering a more spartan existance (which won't happen, and regulatory bodies wouldn't permit to happen) would you still want to enrol your children?

Best wishes

Caroline

Hi Caroline

It's always difficult to answer these "what if...?' questions! My husband spent a brief and unhappy period at boarding school back in the bad old days of vast dormitories, communal showers, foul food and corporal punishment (a veritable Dotheboys Hall if the poor chap is to be believed!). If you're asking whether we would have chosen to put our boys through an experience like that then the answer would be a resounding NO! Thankfully things have moved on, and like most parents we could not fail to be hugely impressed by all that CH has to offer (and let's face it, the school is still making the same marketing pitch even in the current economic decline!).

Having said that, the boarding aspect was rather a negative for us at first. I'd say that 90% of our motivation for sending our children to CH was the knowledge that the school could provide the stimulating and challenging academic environment that our very bright boys need. This was simply not available to us at the local comprehensive which represented our only alternative. It still represents our only alternative. So, if you're asking whether at this stage in their education would we be willing to compromise on the 'frills' in order to keep the fees at a reasonable level and keep our children in the school where they are thriving, then the answer would be a resounding YES!

In a way, of course, we are already doing just that. With the fees spiralling out of all proportion to our means, you need look no further than the ailurophile household for a perfect model of domestic economy and spartan living conditions!!

[huggermugger]

Quote from Mr Franklin in a recent TES article:

"We know which of our pupils would be eligible for free meals because we check when they apply. Sometimes we'll even send someone round to look at what cars are in the driveway and how many flatscreen TVs they have."

So there is some checking going on. My guess is the more squeezed the school gets, the more checking there will be.

As for the single/estranged parent bit - yes, maintenance payments do have to be declared and are counted as part of the family income. In my experience and the experience of most other single parents I know, the non resident parent pays as little as possible and often it is given resentfully. Sad but true. Bear in mind that the child maintenance rules require the absent parent to pay (only) 15% of their net income towards the upkeep of their child and vast swathes of them pay nothing. For every tale you can come up with of dishonest, lazy, single parents doing incredibly well from their ex-partners and the state, I (and the statistics) could counter 10 fold.

The income of the divorced/estranged/absent/non-resident etc etc parent is not taken into account because the child /parent left behind do not have access to it. Yes, some of us have ex-partners who were/are well-off. Some of them are even better off now they do not have to equally share the cost of bringing up the children. Agreat many of them do not contribute a penny more than they have to do by law. The "resident" parent in general has absolutely no control over what the other parent chooses to buy for the child. That in itself can be used as a weapon in an ongoing war.

I do not wish to diminish in any way the situations in which people find themselves with regard to fees and difficult decisions but I am very unhappy about some of the posts here. Much of it is counterproductive, largely irrelevant, achieves nothing and in some cases the tone is downright unpleasant. It just seems to have become an opportunity to look for whipping boys. Please stop speculating, with very little real information, on other people's circumstances, morals and motives. Kicking out is not going to solve anything and some of it is simply uninformed, unhelpful and even hurtful. Many of you are treading, however unwittingly, on some very painful histories.

[Dusty]

This goes back a few posts but I would like to say to Ailurophile and to Lonelymum that I was very touched by your expression of regret that we wouldn't be continuing with our son's application to CH. I did take some time considering that decision but it just wouldn't make sense for us: I don't know what fees at CH or other public schools will do in the future but in the near term I know (on the declared 2009-10 fees for schools) that we would be paying approximately £6,000 more than the alternatives for each of his first 2 years. I'm not so rolling in money that it doesn't make a difference.

We're lucky in that we do have alternatives. I regret that CH is no longer on the agenda but I know that he'll go to a really good school, with a good ethos and even some diversity to it. I 'blame' CH for showing us (and more crucially the children) how good it could be to go to a boarding school and thus letting us in for that extra chunk of fees but seriously, it did demonstrate too us (and more crucially our children) how much opportunity and fun a very good boarding school can offer to children over commuting to a very good day school. As for CH reverting to its more spartan past, please don't think about it - we wouldn't contemplate boarding schools if they were as they were when we were children and CH children have got to be able to hold their heads up with the best in the country. When my brother went to CH it was pretty spartan (and I think that might be an understatement) but so was every other boarding school too! Our experience on the boarding school tours has been that it's fluffy duvet land and hot chocolate now so I'm glad CH has changed too.

This whole process has shown me two particular things which are important. The first is that paying for private education is a struggle. I've read about the struggles other parents have in paying CH fees. I'm well off in comparison with many but it's still enough of a struggle and frightening commitment for me that I worry and keep running the figures. One of the things that will probably go is my pension - not to say that's a good thing but just to demonstrate that even on a very high salary you can't magic £24 to £48k (2 children) out of post-tax income out of nowhere. Reading this forum has reassured me that education is a commitment that many parents will do their utmost to meet and that has strengthened me so thank you. The second thing is that I got to know CH again because I had recommended it to a friend. Our children are at the same primary school but our financial circumstances are very different. Thanks to CH her daughter will get the same great secondary education that my son will get somewhere else and that, thank goodness, really is what CH is all about. I want CH to continue to succeed and hope that (contrary to some indications!) CH does have a coherent strategy that it will soon unveil. One lesson, by the way, from said boarding and day school tours is that schools are much more open in communicating with parents - it may be that CH is not used to thinking of its parents as 'paying customers' but that is the spirit of the day.

Best regards

[ReallyMissingHer]

Dusty that is a lovely post, I'm glad you got reaquainted and were able to pass on the CH info to someone who will benefit.

As for maintenance money, one of the reasons why CH fees "work" for us is that the maintenance we receive is very very variable and when it's high we pay a big chunk to CH but now that it has dropped to a laughable £6.71 per week our fees have gone down accordingly.

[ailurophile]

Dusty, thank you for your post. I am very sorry to hear that things didn't work out quite as you had planned, but I'm sure that your son will be every bit as happy and successful in the school you have chosen as I know he would have been at CH. It has been very informative to hear something of the experiences of a potential 'New foundationer' parent. I really hope that the Powers That Be have read your posts and taken on board some of your insightful comments!

All my best wishes for the future.

[J.R.]

The more I read, the more disheartened I get.

School Ethos ??

I THINK NOT !

[onewestguncopse]

I think that we now need to accept that what CH was able to offer in the past and what it can afford to offer in the future are two distinct things. Old Blue's looking back at what was available then may need to accept a new financial reality that means that the CH of old will change. The cost of running the school post Health and Safety, Social Services, post not having spartan conditions because they are no longer acceptable to parents.... has risen exponentially. This is not something that can be ignored.

Still retaining the ethos of helping as many people as possible but wary of crippling itself in the process. To protect the majority of children who will get bursaries, hard decisions will be made. The L.P. Hartley quote from The Go Between (good book!) is apt - ‘The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there’.

The irony is that Eton expects to be able to offer means tested bursaries to ALL by 2020! Many rich alumni are coughing up cash as we speak.

CH is no longer unique. Eton by the way is also a charitable school, in that it currently enjoys charitable status.

[blondie95]

The irony is that Eton expects to be able to offer means tested bursaries to ALL by 2020! Many rich alumni are coughing up cash as we speak.

CH is no longer unique. Eton by the way is also a charitable school, in that it currently enjoys charitable status.

which is why they are suddenly offering a large number of bursaries-they have to prove they deserve their charitable status

[onewestguncopse]

Exactly - CH is not unique any more. We compete in a busy market place.

[onewestguncopse]

The sadness is that we need parents like Dusty to sign up - or we will be in the S***. A new marketing strategy is mooted - Dusty was right, CH takes for granted the idea that parents are just grateful and need not be wooed. We will be wooing a great deal more in the near future!!

[stpandp]

CH is no longer unique. Eton by the way is also a charitable school, in that it currently enjoys charitable status.

While it is true that CH is different, it is only 10 or so years since the government dropped assisted places at e.g. KEvi witley, CH's sister school. I wonder if anyone at CH has done any analysis of how admission applications rose since assisted places were dropped; and how they might drop again now that other independent schools are offering more substantial bursaries than previously. As one of the many clergy paretns, even 11 years ago, when our first went to CH we had a choice; but CH offered the best "deal" overall - as the fees have increased, this has become less so. I have recently heard of other clergy parents who have not sent children to CH because of the ever rising cost, which they now felt they could not afford.

Just a note on the day when daughter leaves, and so we become ex-CH parents(!) - our 2 have benefited greatly from their education at CH, not least in music, and I do feel that this is one aspect of the school which may well suffer as budgets begin to bite - this would be a great shame, and would remove one important distictive aspect of the school if those taking decisions are not careful.

[ailurophile]

These last few posts seem to demonstrate something of a conundrum. Eton (and other top schools) would appear to be moving towards the CH model of 'needs blind' admissions at exactly the same time as CH is struggling to sustain this and is moving towards the more traditional public school model, being forced to compete for 'paying customers'! Unfortunately Dusty's experience would indicate that the Foundation is insufficiently aware of the competition. Unless CH takes a more realistic approach to establishing what is "reasonably affordable", wealthier parents will continue to take their custom elsewhere.

As Stpandp points out, any parents considering independent education are naturally going to be looking for the 'best deal'. The conundrum for CH is that the school offers the best deal primarily to those who can demonstrate a low income and thus qualify for substantial bursaries - which the school can no longer afford.

Round and round and round we go...

[Mid A 15]

These last few posts seem to demonstrate something of a conundrum. Eton (and other top schools) would appear to be moving towards the CH model of 'needs blind' admissions at exactly the same time as CH is struggling to sustain this and is moving towards the more traditional public school model, being forced to compete for 'paying customers'! Unfortunately Dusty's experience would indicate that the Foundation is insufficiently aware of the competition. Unless CH takes a more realistic approach to establishing what is "reasonably affordable", wealthier parents will continue to take their custom elsewhere.

As Stpandp points out, any parents considering independent education are naturally going to be looking for the 'best deal'. The conundrum for CH is that the school offers the best deal primarily to those who can demonstrate a low income and thus qualify for substantial bursaries - which the school can no longer afford.

Round and round and round we go...

It's opposite ends of the spectrum.

CH was founded to help able, disadvantaged (normally measured in financial terms) children whereas Eton and others have always attracted children from wealthy families.

Given that the majority of parents will pay full fees such schools can easily afford to offer a minimum number of bursaries as a "con" almost to maintain charitable status.

CH has comparitively few wealthy families as the Founding Ethos (in most cases) is contrary to such a situation and thus has to raise funds via other sources, primarily the Endowment and Old Blue generosity.

However if the Endowment is no longer generating sufficient funds and the "credit crunch" is impacting on wealthy Old Blues then I guess the question has to be asked whether it is better to help SOME able disadvantaged children rather than none.

On the same theme this is probably a stupidly obvious question but, given the Charitable Status of the School / Foundation, is there a facility for parents to "Gift Aid" their fees?

That would quite legally raise extra funds via basic rate tax on the fees at no extra cost to parents who would be paying anyway. Furthermore any higher rate taxpaying parents would also be able to reclaim the difference between the higher rate and basic rate themseves.

I only ask as, given that this is a finance thread and Charitable status has been often mentioned, I've seen no mention of Gift Aid.

[englishangel]

A question for that new chap methinks. But the fees would have to be paid to the Foundation rather than the school. I think charity has to be a donation rather than an invoiced amount.

But what do I know? Nothing

[Jo]

I ran a raffle in aid of charity last year, using the Justgiving site to sell nominal tickets. The rules said that as people had a chance of winning, ie getting something in return for their "donation", that the money didn't qualify for GiftAid. I had to warn people that if they GiftAided their contribution, I wouldn't be able to include them in the raffle (some people were ok with that as it happens, they just wanted to make a donation).

On the other hand, last time I went to Ironbridge I signed a GiftAid declaration with my entrance ticket. So clearly they had had the advice that the entrance fee could be considered a donation. I wonder what would have happened if I had declined to donate?