Unofficial Christ's Hospital Forum

bakunin wrote: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:15 pm Points very well made, Avon.

Avon wrote: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:18 pm and above that you place a governance structure of doughties from the Corporation of London massively ignorant of their responsibilities, what do you expect?

Yeah, throwing in a bizarre cobweb-encrusted senile feudal relic of an organisation on top of everything really doesn't help, does it?

Avon wrote: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:18 pm

michael scuffil wrote: Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:39 pm Like rockfreak, I too am amazed by the fact that bullying, which was declining in his time, and declining still faster in mine (we overlapped but he was four years my senior) seems to have got worse in the 1970s and 1980s.

For heaven's sake.

Bullying isn't like smallpox. It doesn't decline as medical science and progressivity increases. Bullying is a function of leadership; poor leadership lets bullying in. Bullying isn't being outmoded as practices change, it just changes itself.

• Sillett: intellectually a factotum but with a violent and aggressive (borderline sadistic with his 'tangents') style of leadership.
  Poulton: bookish but weak as a Nun's pi**. In awe of the Foundation such that he made some dire and inhumane decisions not to report abuse to the authorities.
  Crud. A peasant of the highest (or lowest) order. Morally weak, an appalling choice of housemaster and unable to treat all his charges as equal.
  Cairncross. Largely token as deputy head as far as I observed - but in a position of authority that she failed to meet.

I could go on...

CH in the 80s (that I experienced) was a petri dish - if you create a deliberately spartan environment (by the standards of the time) and fill it with children of such mixed backgrounds overseen by such a broad spectrum of adults, from those happy to rape their charges to those who acutely cared for them, if you add a veneer of leadership that's so myopic and uncaring that the evil can flourish, and above that you place a governance structure of doughties from the Corporation of London massively ignorant of their responsibilities, what do you expect?

For heaven's sake.

Bullying isn't like smallpox. It doesn't decline as medical science and progressivity increases. Bullying is a function of leadership; poor leadership lets bullying in. Bullying isn't being outmoded as practices change, it just changes itself.

CH in the 80s (that I experienced) was a petri dish - if you create a deliberately spartan environment (by the standards of the time) and fill it with children of such mixed backgrounds overseen by such a broad spectrum of adults, from those happy to rape their charges to those who acutely cared for them, if you add a veneer of leadership that's so myopic and uncaring that the evil can flourish, and above that you place a governance structure of doughties from the Corporation of London massively ignorant of their responsibilities, what do you expect?

CodFlabAndMuck wrote: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:58 pm If the moral leadership and discipline is absent then of course you could have the same sort of bullying in houses today
CH is a community not a school, and if developing youngsters are not given clear guidance on what is acceptable and what is not acceptable, then you will have a Lord of the Flies environment within a boarding house
In the 80s housemasters had too much autonomy
There was no oversight of how they ran houses
In my 7 years, the Headmaster only visited once, and that was Baker.
I do believe there need to be more checks and balances in place

sejintenej wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:33 pm

For heaven's sake.

Bullying isn't like smallpox. It doesn't decline as medical science and progressivity increases. Bullying is a function of leadership; poor leadership lets bullying in. Bullying isn't being outmoded as practices change, it just changes itself.

CH in the 80s (that I experienced) was a petri dish - if you create a deliberately spartan environment (by the standards of the time) and fill it with children of such mixed backgrounds overseen by such a broad spectrum of adults, from those happy to rape their charges to those who acutely cared for them, if you add a veneer of leadership that's so myopic and uncaring that the evil can flourish, and above that you place a governance structure of doughties from the Corporation of London massively ignorant of their responsibilities, what do you expect?

CodFlabAndMuck wrote: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:58 pm If the moral leadership and discipline is absent then of course you could have the same sort of bullying in houses today
CH is a community not a school, and if developing youngsters are not given clear guidance on what is acceptable and what is not acceptable, then you will have a Lord of the Flies environment within a boarding house
In the 80s housemasters had too much autonomy
There was no oversight of how they ran houses
In my 7 years, the Headmaster only visited once, and that was Baker.
I do believe there need to be more checks and balances in place

Somehow I have mixed up the authorships.
The corporation of the City of London; can they really be responsible for day to day running of the school? For historical reasons they attempt to help supply the school with funds, teachers etc. but no more. Moral guidance per se is not their function but certainly they (with a small minority vote) could attempt to influencce matters.

As for your input, you are correct but I suggest that this was during a time of change from when senior pupils ran the houses and housemasters were in the background. Things have changed but enough?

As for your comment (which I think is correct) I do believe there need to be more checks and balances in place if you are going to write something like this I would have expected you to make some specific suggestions (or admit that you cannot see how this would be avheived). Criticism is seldom useful unless accompanied by suggestions for improvement. (Sorry -that is a pet hate).
From a practical point of view I cannot see how you would create effective checks and balances - question every pupil once a week? - I doubt they will/can tell the complete truth. As an adult, eight times every day of physiotherapy I am asked how I feel on a scale from one to ten. It is extremely difficult even though it is slanted at one element of my body. Ask a kid about their satisfaction level or degree of happiness ........!

graham wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:54 pm

marty wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:33 pm

graham wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:02 pm

But the Queen's club isn't - I think Rockfreak is making a good point about the level of vulnerability of the student body at CH compared with other schools or institutions. It makes you wonder about Dobbie at Shrewsbury, which I understand to be an expensive private school. Would he have been as successful in his predations at a place like that? I suspect we will find out in the near future ...

Queen's Club is not a school. You have to be over 18 to be a member. So in either case neither are particularly comparable: Karim's victims were female minors - not a victim group to be found at either Eton or Queen's Club.

Argh, you're correct of course. I misremembered one of the news reports, in which the director said he would entrust his daughters to Karim, as saying that he had actually been teaching kids there.

But I think Rockfreak's point is still a good one, albeit not specific to Karim's case.

CodFlabAndMuck wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:14 pmAs I alluded to, I would suggest the Headmaster spends more time in the houses.

CodFlabAndMuck wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:14 pmOnly then can he begin to know what is going on.

CodFlabAndMuck wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:14 pm

sejintenej wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:33 pm

For heaven's sake.

Bullying isn't like smallpox. It doesn't decline as medical science and progressivity increases. Bullying is a function of leadership; poor leadership lets bullying in. Bullying isn't being outmoded as practices change, it just changes itself.

CH in the 80s (that I experienced) was a petri dish - if you create a deliberately spartan environment (by the standards of the time) and fill it with children of such mixed backgrounds overseen by such a broad spectrum of adults, from those happy to rape their charges to those who acutely cared for them, if you add a veneer of leadership that's so myopic and uncaring that the evil can flourish, and above that you place a governance structure of doughties from the Corporation of London massively ignorant of their responsibilities, what do you expect?

CodFlabAndMuck wrote: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:58 pm If the moral leadership and discipline is absent then of course you could have the same sort of bullying in houses today
CH is a community not a school, and if developing youngsters are not given clear guidance on what is acceptable and what is not acceptable, then you will have a Lord of the Flies environment within a boarding house
In the 80s housemasters had too much autonomy
There was no oversight of how they ran houses
In my 7 years, the Headmaster only visited once, and that was Baker.
I do believe there need to be more checks and balances in place

Somehow I have mixed up the authorships.
The corporation of the City of London; can they really be responsible for day to day running of the school? For historical reasons they attempt to help supply the school with funds, teachers etc. but no more. Moral guidance per se is not their function but certainly they (with a small minority vote) could attempt to influencce matters.

As for your input, you are correct but I suggest that this was during a time of change from when senior pupils ran the houses and housemasters were in the background. Things have changed but enough?

As for your comment (which I think is correct) I do believe there need to be more checks and balances in place if you are going to write something like this I would have expected you to make some specific suggestions (or admit that you cannot see how this would be avheived). Criticism is seldom useful unless accompanied by suggestions for improvement. (Sorry -that is a pet hate).
From a practical point of view I cannot see how you would create effective checks and balances - question every pupil once a week? - I doubt they will/can tell the complete truth. As an adult, eight times every day of physiotherapy I am asked how I feel on a scale from one to ten. It is extremely difficult even though it is slanted at one element of my body. Ask a kid about their satisfaction level or degree of happiness ........!

As I alluded to, I would suggest the Headmaster spends more time in the houses. Only then can he begin to know what is going on.

Take prep, do dorm duty etc

I would have the SMT or another senior group of teachers, randomly visit houses, and see for themselves what the house is like.

Over time I think pupils would get used to this and be less self aware during such visits

I would facilitate an anonomous online feedback mechanism for pupils to report any concerns and issues, such as bullying and other anti social behaviour

I would have annual appraisals of housemasters conducted by the SMT

None of this is particularly imaginative or groundbreaking, and is common practice in many institutions

In response to your point about anti social behaviour was prevalent because the Monitors ran the houses and the housemasters took a back seat: Fine, but that's not an excuse. The housemaster is ultimately responsible for how a house is run. If he choses to take a back seat then that is an abdication of responsibility. Just like turning a blind eye when pupils make openly snide comments to another pupil or even once, I witnessed a house tutor on the receiving end!

harryh wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:59 pm The houses are visited on a random basis by an SLT member on virtually every night of the week.

graham wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:41 pm

harryh wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:59 pm The houses are visited on a random basis by an SLT member on virtually every night of the week.

It's reassuring to know that this happens now, but it certainly was not happening as recently as the early-mid 1990's. Poulton visited Maine B once while I was there, the only time I ever spoke to him, and that was a thoroughly pre-planned visit. Cairncross visited ThA once, but that was in the middle of the night due to a riot.

It may be that the school needs to do a better job of articulating to former pupils the measures that are being taken to prevent a recurrence of the events that are now emerging. Based on what you describe, it seems that they may be taking steps in the right direction but how are we to know?

graham wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:41 pm

harryh wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:59 pm The houses are visited on a random basis by an SLT member on virtually every night of the week.

It's reassuring to know that this happens now, but it certainly was not happening as recently as the early-mid 1990's. Poulton visited Maine B once while I was there, the only time I ever spoke to him, and that was a thoroughly pre-planned visit. Cairncross visited ThA once, but that was in the middle of the night due to a riot.