Black Lives Matter

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sejintenej
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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by sejintenej »

Ajarn Philip wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:02 am

Welcome to the 21st century, David! RP hasn't been around for a long time, except among the privileged classes, and the English language is all the better for it.
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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by AMP »

Ignorant, racist, both or neither?
I very recently attended a chinese burial in Harlow for a friend who was born and bred there.
Like all his siblings and cousins, he had been fluent in chinese and spoke english like any person born here.
"We was going to go to the seaside but it rained"
I was chatting to a very well meaning english couple and one of his cousins who is a black cab driver, when the wife asked him out of the blue
"Where do you originate from, which part of China?"
He looked startled but politely responded that he had been born in Harlow.
I bet he gets that sort of thing all the time.

I
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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by sejintenej »

AMP wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:59 pm Ignorant, racist, both or neither?
I very recently attended a chinese burial in Harlow for a friend who was born and bred there.
Like all his siblings and cousins, he had been fluent in chinese and spoke english like any person born here.
"We was going to go to the seaside but it rained"
I was chatting to a very well meaning english couple and one of his cousins who is a black cab driver, when the wife asked him out of the blue
"Where do you originate from, which part of China?"
He looked startled but politely responded that he had been born in Harlow.
I bet he gets that sort of thing all the time.
I would say neither. If he spoke Chinese fluently there is a good chance he had lived in China. that said, English with an English accent spells English upbringing. An honest question with an honest answer; it is what (if anything) that follows which could be important. You don't say but perhaps the wife had connections with China - those Brits pop up everywhere. I found there are a couple of Brazilian families living close to where I live. It is a very small world and don't forget the rule of 7.

I know Chinese people born in Singapore who do speak and read a Chinese dialect plus Oxbridge English but also their related Chinese born in Durban whose mother from the south of China could not speak English but none of the children speaks Chinese despite some having later worked there!
I was surprised; the mother could not speak to the Beijing waiters in London because of the dialect but they all wrote the same characters and could converse that way.
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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by AMP »

sejintenej wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:13 pm
AMP wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:59 pm Ignorant, racist, both or neither?
I very recently attended a chinese burial in Harlow for a friend who was born and bred there.
Like all his siblings and cousins, he had been fluent in chinese and spoke english like any person born here.
"We was going to go to the seaside but it rained"
I was chatting to a very well meaning english couple and one of his cousins who is a black cab driver, when the wife asked him out of the blue
"Where do you originate from, which part of China?"
He looked startled but politely responded that he had been born in Harlow.
I bet he gets that sort of thing all the time.
I would say neither. If he spoke Chinese fluently there is a good chance he had lived in China. that said, English with an English accent spells English upbringing. An honest question with an honest answer; it is what (if anything) that follows which could be important. You don't say but perhaps the wife had connections with China - those Brits pop up everywhere. I found there are a couple of Brazilian families living close to where I live. It is a very small world and don't forget the rule of 7.

I know Chinese people born in Singapore who do speak and read a Chinese dialect plus Oxbridge English but also their related Chinese born in Durban whose mother from the south of China could not speak English but none of the children speaks Chinese despite some having later worked there!
I was surprised; the mother could not speak to the Beijing waiters in London because of the dialect but they all wrote the same characters and could converse that way.
He conversed with his parents in chinese and both still live in Harlow and it appeared they prefer to speak in chinese.
Chinese families and communities are very close knit and as a middle aged married man he usually spent four evenings a week at his parents' home.
Always visited on a Sunday for a roast.
The english couple are Essex through and through. They did not mention any chinese connections.
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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AMP wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:59 pm Ignorant, racist, both or neither?
I very recently attended a chinese burial in Harlow for a friend who was born and bred there.
Like all his siblings and cousins, he had been fluent in chinese and spoke english like any person born here.
"We was going to go to the seaside but it rained"
I was chatting to a very well meaning english couple and one of his cousins who is a black cab driver, when the wife asked him out of the blue
"Where do you originate from, which part of China?"
He looked startled but politely responded that he had been born in Harlow.
I bet he gets that sort of thing all the time.
Ignorant, absolutely, as an event. The event itself may not be racist but it is a symptom of a racist society.

As always, I preface with intent does not equal impact. The intent may well have been genuine curiosity but the impact is to say "you're not one of us". If the person asking the question has to ask, presumably they do not know the family well. And therefore they have no idea how many generations ago the various branches of this person's family moved to the UK or how many different places they came from. For all they know, this cab drivers ancestors may have been living in the UK for longer than their own. But, because he looks different and can speak another language, he is obviously from elsewhere.

This is one of those things where the person asking the question may well be well-intentioned but their impact is potentially harmful. Its the kind of topic that might come up in conversation with a close friend, in an appropriate context, but in the situation described its just dumb.

Allow me to do a David and share an anecdote of my own. My wife and I were once in a duty free shop at Gatwick Airport, waiting in line to pay. An older white woman approached us and pointed out her husband was in front of us, to let us know she was not jumping the line. After we smiled and said
"go ahead", she turned to my wife and said "arigato", looking immensely proud of herself. My wife is half Thai / half caucasian. She speaks fluent english with a midwestern american accent. We were dumbstruck - this woman was clearly very proud of herself for communicating to my wife in a language she assumed she spoke. I think the old addage needs slight modification. When you assume, you make an ass of yourself and definitely seem a little bit racist.
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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Getting back to title track, David I posted my definition of systemic racism and I maintain this is a real problem for the Black community in the UK that requires fixing predominantly by the white majority. I am still curious to hear your take on this very specific problem that is, after all, the root of the Black Lives Matter movement that you claim to object to.
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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by time please »

graham wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:30 pm
AMP wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:59 pm Ignorant, racist, both or neither?
I very recently attended a chinese burial in Harlow for a friend who was born and bred there.
Like all his siblings and cousins, he had been fluent in chinese and spoke english like any person born here.
"We was going to go to the seaside but it rained"
I was chatting to a very well meaning english couple and one of his cousins who is a black cab driver, when the wife asked him out of the blue
"Where do you originate from, which part of China?"
He looked startled but politely responded that he had been born in Harlow.
I bet he gets that sort of thing all the time.
Ignorant, absolutely, as an event. The event itself may not be racist but it is a symptom of a racist society.

As always, I preface with intent does not equal impact. The intent may well have been genuine curiosity but the impact is to say "you're not one of us". If the person asking the question has to ask, presumably they do not know the family well. And therefore they have no idea how many generations ago the various branches of this person's family moved to the UK or how many different places they came from. For all they know, this cab drivers ancestors may have been living in the UK for longer than their own. But, because he looks different and can speak another language, he is obviously from elsewhere.

This is one of those things where the person asking the question may well be well-intentioned but their impact is potentially harmful. Its the kind of topic that might come up in conversation with a close friend, in an appropriate context, but in the situation described its just dumb.

Allow me to do a David and share an anecdote of my own. My wife and I were once in a duty free shop at Gatwick Airport, waiting in line to pay. An older white woman approached us and pointed out her husband was in front of us, to let us know she was not jumping the line. After we smiled and said
"go ahead", she turned to my wife and said "arigato", looking immensely proud of herself. My wife is half Thai / half caucasian. She speaks fluent english with a midwestern american accent. We were dumbstruck - this woman was clearly very proud of herself for communicating to my wife in a language she assumed she spoke. I think the old addage needs slight modification. When you assume, you make an ass of yourself and definitely seem a little bit racist.
I think Graham is trying to find offence wherever he can! I have been living abroad for 45 years, I quite regularly get asked where I come from because I still have a slight accent. I have never felt that anyone is trying to tell me that " you're not one of us". On the contrary it is a good opening for a conversation.

Black Lives Matter: Watching the news the other day of the riots in the USA. Lots of demonstrators and lots of mobile phones. How many Black ( Young ) Lives were sacrificied in making the batterys?
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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by graham »

time please wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:50 am
I think Graham is trying to find offence wherever he can! I have been living abroad for 45 years, I quite regularly get asked where I come from because I still have a slight accent. I have never felt that anyone is trying to tell me that " you're not one of us". On the contrary it is a good opening for a conversation.
I don’t think I’m looking for offense where there is none. AMP’s description of the event described the shock of the recipient of the comment.

And with the greatest of respect, an accent is very different to skin color. Accents tend to be acquired environmentally while skin color is (somewhat) genetic. Noting someone’s accent and enquiring where they are from is absolutely part of learning about someone. Noting that their skin is different to yours and asking where they’re from “originally” is not. AMPs anecdote illustrates this point perfectly. The cab driving friend is described as having a strong British accent. The only thing that made him different was his skin color.

Edit added: i don’t think my point above was clear. Culture is environmental too. We have no control over our genetic composition but can acquire culture within a generation. A person of Asian genetic ancestry who is a second, third etc generation Brit can have zero connection to Asian culture. In AMPs story, the person in question had a British accent and is apparently culturally as British as anyone. But despite this, they were asked where they were from originally. Imagine a white person who was born in Germany to German parents but grew up in London and acquired a British accent. Would they be asked where they came from? Doubtful. So skin really is the only discriminating characteristic here.
Black Lives Matter: Watching the news the other day of the riots in the USA. Lots of demonstrators and lots of mobile phones. How many Black ( Young ) Lives were sacrificied in making the batterys?
The humanitarian issues surrounding cobalt mining are of course profound and require drastic action. But if your response to Black Americans demanding an end to police violence and equitable treatment in their own country is to call them hypocrites for owning cell phones, then I am at a loss.
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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by sejintenej »

Graham. I thought that I had made my views perfectly plain. I do not consider white, black, brown, yellow, round eyes or narrowed eyes, male female or hermaphrodites differently. I do object to green martians however.
I view with disgust the actions of certain police of various nationalities who act improperly against people of their own or different colours.
I view with concern those people who try to claim that any one group of people is better than another group

We have to recall that elsewhere government passed law is that whites must not be employed if there are blacks who can do the job or could be trained to do it. Are you going to fight that?
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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sejintenej wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:11 pm Graham. I thought that I had made my views perfectly plain. I do not consider white, black, brown, yellow, round eyes or narrowed eyes, male female or hermaphrodites differently. I do object to green martians however.
I view with disgust the actions of certain police of various nationalities who act improperly against people of their own or different colours.
I view with concern those people who try to claim that any one group of people is better than another group
I don't take issue with you, David. I take you at your word that you treat everyone equally. That doesn't change the fact that Black people are under-represented, both here in the US and over there in the UK, in positions of power within government, industry etc. And it doesn't change the fact that police interactions with Black people tend to result in the kinds of acts you view with disgust to a greater proportion that do interactions with white people. That's why I have tried to stress the impact of SYSTEMIC racism, and not the actions of individuals, and why I think its important to discuss what we can do to correct this.

And, with the greatest of respect, not seeing people differently at this time doesnt help. In an idealistic, equal and equitable world then yes it'd be the right way to do business. But, we don't live in that world. We live in a world that is plagued by the impacts of empire, slavery, inequality, and poverty. I would suggest that the way to address the impacts of systemic racism is not to pretend color doesn't exist but to recognize that inequity exists based on color and to address it. Which leads to....


We have to recall that elsewhere government passed law is that whites must not be employed if there are blacks who can do the job or could be trained to do it. Are you going to fight that?
It depends. I'm all for affirmative action. It's a critical part of the toolkit we have to address the impacts of systemic racism. Whether I oppose this specific legislation depends on the context. If this is about creating equity in management positions, for example, then it sounds great. But It should not be a permanent implementation. Each organization should know its diversity metrics and any affirmative action plan should only last as long as needed. If this plan applies not to management but to lower paid positions then its not serving a role in creating equity but is adding to imbalance and, yes, I would fight it.
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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It's rather disheartening seeing people who claim to be against racism and discrimination in general, who seem to have broad life experiences etc, but use multiple terms that are at best outdated and ignorant, and at worst racial or other slurs.
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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graham wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:41 pm

We have to recall that elsewhere government passed law is that whites must not be employed if there are blacks who can do the job or could be trained to do it. Are you going to fight that?
It depends. I'm all for affirmative action. It's a critical part of the toolkit we have to address the impacts of systemic racism. Whether I oppose this specific legislation depends on the context. If this is about creating equity in management positions, for example, then it sounds great. But It should not be a permanent implementation. Each organization should know its diversity metrics and any affirmative action plan should only last as long as needed. If this plan applies not to management but to lower paid positions then its not serving a role in creating equity but is adding to imbalance and, yes, I would fight it.
Ahh.! so the Chump should ban the employment of whites????????? that is affirmative action but the hidden KKK would never allow it. A bit like a modern day Sherman marching through Georgia.

Incidentally, interesting to see that this conversation is being tracked by a US outfit.
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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Otter wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:10 am It's rather disheartening seeing people who claim to be against racism and discrimination in general, who seem to have broad life experiences etc, but use multiple terms that are at best outdated and ignorant, and at worst racial or other slurs.
Intent...?
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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Pe.A wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:03 pm
Otter wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:10 am It's rather disheartening seeing people who claim to be against racism and discrimination in general, who seem to have broad life experiences etc, but use multiple terms that are at best outdated and ignorant, and at worst racial or other slurs.
Intent...?
... does not equal impact!!
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Re: Black Lives Matter

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sejintenej wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:36 pm
Ahh.! so the Chump should ban the employment of whites????????? that is affirmative action but the hidden KKK would never allow it. A bit like a modern day Sherman marching through Georgia.

Incidentally, interesting to see that this conversation is being tracked by a US outfit.
No one is calling for a ban on the employment of whites. Affirmative action, properly implemented, does not prohibit the employment of any majority group. Rather, it provides a justification for the consideration of race / gender / etc... as an additional factor when assembling a shortlist from qualified candidates. If not enough qualified candidates are deemed to come from underrepresented groups, it provides a justification for deeming that the search has failed.

From your response, I get the impression you are broadly in agreement that Affirmative Action is a good thing. Is that correct? If so, I think you broadly agree with the motivations of the Black Lives Matter movement. This whole conversation reminds me of many discussions about feminism. Many a man claims to support equal rights and opportunities for women but to not support the feminists. Being a feminist means you support equal rights and opportunities for women. :rolleyes:
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